Saving the Evil from death

[Randel]

Okay, lets assume that in a DnD world then there is an actual afterlife, that all Good people go to a Good afterlife and all Evil people go to an Evil afterlife.

Not only that, but evil people are tortured endlessly in their hellish afterlife until they are eventually turned into fiends/slaves/soldiers/food for whatever evil entities are in charge of their afterlife and eventually at the End of the World they will be used in a final war between the forces of Good and Evil.

Thus, every time a person or creature dies while having an Evil alignment, not only are they sent to a hellish and never ending nightmare of pain, torture, and indignity that not even the most twisted psychopath in the mortal realm could devise... but they strengthen the forces of Evil in a way that could eventually cause pain for everyone (including and especially the immortal souls of everyone in the Good afterlife).


So, an organization of Good aligned heroes including spellcasters, soldiers, paladins and whatnot know about this and want to prevent people from dying with an evil alignment and/or save everyone who is currently in Hell.

How would they go about doing that?

Lets say this takes place in DnD 3.5 so there is all sorts of room for magic cheese.

Also, what sort of people would want to stop them from carrying out their plan for whatever reason?


One idea: Set up some means of reliable and cheap Flesh to Stone magic, then have their soldiers hunt down everyone of evil alignment, capture them alive with nonlethal damage or magic, then give them a fair trial and if they are found guilty then turn them to stone using Flesh to Stone.

The enemy remains a statue forever and thus their soul doesn't pass on to the afterlife, then later if there is a way to convert them to Good alignment then they can use Stone to Flesh and carry out the conversion.

[Frosty]

There's always Exalted Mindrape Sanctiy the Wicked spell from BoED.

[Yukitsu]

If you're talking about Hell, they actually want some really good lawyers. You don't have to fight to get a soul out of there, but you do need to file an appeal to their condemnation to the eternal fires of Baator.

Of course, you could do your way, but I don't particularly think being caught in some kind of eternal limbo is much better.

[Tetrasodium]

So, an organization of Good aligned heroes including spellcasters, soldiers, paladins and whatnot know about this and want to prevent people from dying with an evil alignment and/or save everyone who is currently in Hell.

How would they go about doing that?

Planeshift or similar and start killing or using soul jar type spells on folks.

[Ilmryn]

Plane shift into hell. Gate in the most powerful good creature you can think of(advanced HD and template stacking does quite a lot, and you don't need that much higher than CR 50 really), then planeshift out. Let the Half-celestial Paragon Hecatonheires or whatever destroy hell, then repeat on other evil planes.
Insane things exist in DnD. According to the Fiendish Codex, Asmodeus is only CR 28 if I remember correctly, so you can easily get a creature powerful enough to destroy the nine hells(or any other evil outer plane) singlehandedly.

Alternativly, use Epic Magic. Just order everyone to be good.
Or spam solars until you have enough mitigation to do anything you want.

[Yukitsu]

The books suggest that Asmodeus has a true form and a representation. His representation is level 28, while he himself is whatever the DM wants him to be.

[Ranos]

This would actually make for a pretty good campaign setting, from either side.

How would they go about doing that?

Many ways to go about that. The high level mind**** spells work well when you're only dealing with a few people, but on an entire population, you'll have too few high level casters to make them effective.

Really, this would probably go down like a denunciation campaign, neighbors incriminating each other, rampant paranoia, culminating with witch hunts. Paladins and clerics would quickly be swarmed with demands for detect evil, so you'd probably have those 'suspects' stay imprisoned for quite a while. You'd probably have an Inquisitor NPC class pop-up, mass-produced paladins with detect evil but none of the other abilities.

Also, what sort of people would want to stop them from carrying out their plan for whatever reason?

Well, people who know themselves to be evil, for one. Including the gods, who may implicate themselves more or less depending on the kind of setting. Then you'd have people who THINK themselves to be evil. You could also have people who have witnessed the system go wrong, and are trying to put an end to the abuse, freedom fighters. Then there's the other nations, who would probably see the ideology as a threat and decide to strike preemptively before the crusaders of Good decide to purge them as well.

One idea: Set up some means of reliable and cheap Flesh to Stone magic, then have their soldiers hunt down everyone of evil alignment, capture them alive with nonlethal damage or magic, then give them a fair trial and if they are found guilty then turn them to stone using Flesh to Stone.

Hm, yes, but guilty of what ? Evil people aren't necessarily criminals, they're just people. King Kaius in Eberron is Lawful Evil, but he merely does what he feels is best for his nation, rules fairly, and is a strong proponent of peace, pretty much the only ruler who doesn't vary on that, actually. Is he guilty ?
Either you lock up every evil people in stone, in which case there's no need for a trial, or you need them to be guilty of a crime, in which case there's no need to hunt them down except as part of the investigation of said crime.

Anyway, this would make a pretty interesting setting, similar to a Tippyverse/1984 deal. A reverse Ravenloft, you could say.

[Set]

The requirement that an animal or vermin must be bumped up to an Int 3 when the celestial or fiendish template is applied, and it becomes good or evil, suggests that something with an Int 2 or less can't make moral or ethical choices, and is, by default, neutral.

Perhaps Feeblemind could drain the malice (or benevolence) right out of someone, so that if they then died, they'd do so in an artificially-imposed 'state of grace,' unable to be evil (or good, or chaotic, or lawful).

Depending on the assumptions of the system, it's possible that infants are 'pre-alignment,' meaning that it's better to kill infant orcs, kobolds, etc. before they have a chance to turn evil (and vitally important to preserve elven, human, etc. infants until they are old enough to 'choose good,' and then, probably the best idea to kill them immediately, before they can screw up and possibly switch back to neutral or evil and end up serving as batteries for Team Evil). But that's pretty mechanistic, even for a system as wonky as D&D's alignment system...

I generally prefer the idea of redemption / forgiveness / etc. over the idea of 'kill 'em all,' but that's from my own beliefs and not every character I play shares them.

D&D has never really done a stellar job of applying it's afterlife philosophy or alignment system in any consistent or logical manner, and it's generally assumed that sending an infinite amount of orcs to Gehenna doesn't actually make Gruumsh any stronger than Corellon, who gets like six elven souls a year. Heck, if sheer number of souls was the deciding factor, Maglubiyet and Kurtulmak should be *vastly* more powerful than Bahamut or Tiamat.

Maybe evil souls are just 'worth less' than good souls, and Asmodeus needs hundreds of them to equal one soul going to Pelor.

Maybe the good gods in the upper planes draw power directly from the positive energy plane, the source of all light and life, an unending battery, while the evil gods in the lower planes are clustered around the negative energy plane, an endless hungering void that *eats* power instead of granting it, forcing them to work for a living and rake in souls of goblins and cultists and whatnot by the bucketful instead of basking in free power from the happy glowy place.

[Randel]

Hm, yes, but guilty of what ? Evil people aren't necessarily criminals, they're just people. King Kaius in Eberron is Lawful Evil, but he merely does what he feels is best for his nation, rules fairly, and is a strong proponent of peace, pretty much the only ruler who doesn't vary on that, actually. Is he guilty ?
Either you lock up every evil people in stone, in which case there's no need for a trial, or you need them to be guilty of a crime, in which case there's no need to hunt them down except as part of the investigation of said crime.

Anyway, this would make a pretty interesting setting, similar to a Tippyverse/1984 deal. A reverse Ravenloft, you could say.

Hmm, they might have "being evil" be a sort of semi-crime where they have to attend a re-education camp where they will learn to mend their ways until they become good. Anyone who is both evil and commits a crime either gets turned to stone or undergoes re-education in addition to paying for their actual crimes.


Also, murder or killing people is considered exceptionally bad since if the victim is evil then their soul goes to hell (heh, it might be considered worse to kill an evil person than a good one). Perhaps murderers are the only ones who warrent being turned to stone.

Thus, their Inquisitor NPCs might have both Detect Evil and the ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty. They find someone, check if they are evil, and bring them in for a fair trial. If they resist then they beat them into submission with nonlethal damage.

Any adventurers or vigilantes who make it a habit of killing Evil people (or anyone for that matter) would be tracked down by the law regardless of their alignment. Curative magic would be made realativly common.

Ideally, nobody would die regardless of their alignement but anyone at risk of dying should hopefully be converted to Good before they do so (and good people should die old and content or at least be happy that they have an eternal reward to go to). This doesn't protect people from being beaten, tortured, or mind-controlled. After all, if the Inquisition converts you to Good before you die then you have an eternity in Heaven instead of the eternity in Hell if they didn't.

People with a neutral alignment probably don't get bugged much aside from people wanting to make sure they stay well on the 'good' side of neutral. Since a fair bit of this scenario rests in the conditions of the afterlife and the motivations of the deity in charge of them, I guess it depends on how the Neutral gods behave.

Inquisitor Zap Brannigan: An evil person you can trust to be evil, but who can trust a neutral?

[Lysander]

Make them intelligent undead and strand them on a desolate plane. Campaign hook: You are an evil person, brought back as a ghoul by Project Empty Hell. Team up with other monstrosities and escape the undead prison city built on the negative energy plane.

[fryplink]

Hmm, they might have "being evil" be a sort of semi-crime where they have to attend a re-education camp where they will learn to mend their ways until they become good. Anyone who is both evil and commits a crime either gets turned to stone or undergoes re-education in addition to paying for their actual crimes.

Um.... this re-education camp isn't a year long and in a gem is it? The camps name is "Sanctify the Wicked" isn't it?

[Lord Thurlvin]

Insane things exist in DnD. According to the Fiendish Codex, Asmodeus is only CR 28 if I remember correctly, so you can easily get a creature powerful enough to destroy the nine hells(or any other evil outer plane) singlehandedly.

Alternativly, use Epic Magic. Just order everyone to be good.
Or spam solars until you have enough mitigation to do anything you want.

The Aspect of Asmodeus is listed as CR 28 in the Fiendish Codex II. That's one thing that was improved from I to II, at least.

[Xefas]

Ideally, nobody would die regardless of their alignement but anyone at risk of dying should hopefully be converted to Good before they do so (and good people should die old and content or at least be happy that they have an eternal reward to go to). This doesn't protect people from being beaten, tortured, or mind-controlled. After all, if the Inquisition converts you to Good before you die then you have an eternity in Heaven instead of the eternity in Hell if they didn't.

One of my favorite Lawful Evil villains was a Crusader with an Item of At-Will Detect Good. He was originally Neutral Good, but after witnessing the full breadth of the Outer Planes, and realizing the truth of the afterlife, he was inspired to make the "Ultimate Sacrifice".

First, he decided that he had to murder every single Good-aligned person he came across. They were Good now, but at some point in the future, they might turn from the righteous path and become Neutral or Evil. Taking away their ability to make the Wrong Choice was, in his mind, an act of great mercy, as you're assuring their place in an eternity of bliss.

Second, he had to do everything in his power to turn every non-Good person Good, even if only for an instant. Torture was generally the quickest way, and being mortal, he didn't have a whole lot of time. So, if at any point the person being tortured registered on his Detect Good item, he'd kill them, sending them to the Upper Planes; saving them from an eternity of torture and use in the armies of the Lower Planes.

He knew that, at the end of this, there would be no redemption for him. Killing innocent people like he had planned was unforgivable, and so he would be the last martyr, willingly sending himself to an eternity of Hell so that the maximum number of people possible could be saved. And what could be more Good than that?

Alternatively, if he could just find a Helm of Opposite Alignment...

[Randel]

Um.... this re-education camp isn't a year long and in a gem is it? The camps name is "Sanctify the Wicked" isn't it?

Well, I'm not going to be using a 9th level spell that burns up a level from the spellcaster at the very least.

Though a year might be about right.

1. At first use arguments and normal psychology or possibly torture to help them change their minds.

2. If that doesn't work, maybe toss in some mind control spells to 'nudge' them in the right direction.

3. If that doesn't work use a Helm of opposite alignment to force them to become the opposite of whatever alignment they are now. (only use if they are still Evil, if they changed to neutral then the previous therapy was working and you just need to persuade them some more.)

4. If the Helm doesn't work then try something else.

5. If that doesn't work then turn them to stone and keep them in a vault somewhere forever or until you've got a better plan.

6. If you can't petrify them... figure out some other way to keep them from hurting anyone.

7. It you can't do that... then kill them.

Sanctify the Wicked sounds like a really expensive thing to use... better to use the less expensive stuff or if you really need to then just plane-shift them to Heaven and let the paragons of Lawful Good handle it.

[The Glyphstone]

There was an interesting thread on a similar premise a few months back, but using the Diplomacy rules instead of StW for high-level good characters to forcibly convert everyone to Good. It ended semi-derailed by ideas for an Evil campaign focused on restoring Evil to a world that had been all Good for generations to repair cosmic balance or something, but was a neat topic.

[imp_fireball]

People with a neutral alignment probably don't get bugged much aside from people wanting to make sure they stay well on the 'good' side of neutral. Since a fair bit of this scenario rests in the conditions of the afterlife and the motivations of the deity in charge of them, I guess it depends on how the Neutral gods behave.

So in other words, neutral is the new good while the actual good is just an ideological state attainable by the after-life fearing populace.

Actual good guys may be the only people who martyr themselves to ensure that nothing too bad comes of it all.

Also note that inquisitors and those who wrongly turn people from flesh to stone could become evil at any point. In fact, witch hunts are largely evil by themselves - or are the most easily corrupted practice among any atrocity that mankind can commit to.

There was an interesting thread on a similar premise a few months back, but using the Diplomacy rules instead of StW for high-level good characters to forcibly convert everyone to Good. It ended semi-derailed by ideas for an Evil campaign focused on restoring Evil to a world that had been all Good for generations to repair cosmic balance or something, but was a neat topic.

Regardless, evil could win just by corrupting the populace from inside rather than actual assaults. Or cosmic balance could simply be restored just by having the evils merely existing in the form of weaker creatures thinking jealous thoughts of the more powerful goods.

At first use arguments and normal psychology or possibly torture to help them change their minds.

That alone is pretty evil. Using evil to get rid of evil still makes evil. It's not a case of two negatives equals a plus. More like 'one bad act to cover up another bad act'.

And what could be more Good than that?

Well if you take that perspective, it also depends on what each respective god thinks at the end. Being mortal, he could only contribute so much, so inevitably he might end up as neutral.

Serving good to prevent some battle at the end of days by slaying people entirely against their will is very morally contrived and contradictory (in fact it probably disobeys the vision of some good gods that might believe ie. 'Man must do with the best it can in its mortal life.')... in fact, it probably boils down to neutral. Possibly TN at the end. It defies all order and convention and the crusader is inevitably serving his own ideals or vision in accordance to a high vision - but the vision does not promote an orderly universe. In fact, it very much defiles the material plane with dead bodies.

Neutrals, and not just LNs, abide by logic more than any actual moral wing. The crusader's decision to send every being to the good after life so that good can win the 'final battle' is logic. It isn't good because it serves no care for the actual well being of said creatures.

IMO, good is more than helping people. It's taking joy in the pleasure of others and for the right reasons.

Evil might do the same, but only because said people are their friends. They generally have a reputation of savagely hating everyone else.

[The_Admiral]

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=118771*Bows*

[hamishspence]

If Fiendish Codex 2's Corruption rules apply, a lot of these now Good beings will have pretty high corruption ratings. If they die without having reduced them (but were trying) they'd become Hellbred after death if Lawful, rather than going straight to the Upper Planes.

I'm not sure how it works if they're non-lawful- or if they're non-lawful but have high Obesiance ratings.

[WinWin]

Why is there the assumption that evil people are tortured in a hellish afterlife?

I can understand that people who sucked at being evil might be punished, but it stands to reason that evil deities would reward their loyal followers. Otherwise there would be no worshippers of evil deities. Citation : Contact Other Plane

Besides, a masochist might enjoy being tortured. A sadist would enjoy torturing. An evil warlord might enjoy the constant war in Archeron. One of the infinite layers of the Abyss might be made of cotton candy...eeeevil cotton candy that gives people cavities.

Why is it the responsibility of good to save people from their own choices? This scenario reeks of fascism.

[Morquard]

Why is there the assumption that evil people are tortured in a hellish afterlife?

I can understand that people who sucked at being evil might be punished, but it stands to reason that evil deities would reward their loyal followers. Otherwise there would be no worshippers of evil deities. Citation : Contact Other Plane

I agree, it makes no sense, but most I read about D&D afterlife contradicts something you read somewhere else. And your statement might be right, but why would people still worship them? They all would think that they are the ones that are worthy, they're the devout followers that get rewarded. Even if none of them actually are, they'll still try their best.

Why is it the responsibility of good to save people from their own choices? This scenario reeks of fascism.

As I understood it in this scenario they are not trying to safe the evil people from torture. They're denying the evil deities new souls, so they can't strenghten their armies and wage war upon the heavens.

However there's a huge flaw in that: Life expectancy of a human is what? 70 years. Gods are patient, they have alot of time.
Even if you start at the age of 20, and manage to not get assassinated or killed in combat with some evil people, and die of old age, you have "put away" evil people for 50 years.
Now even if you assume your empire and fanatic church survives you for a couple of generations, so what, 200, 300 years maybe. Eventually it will crumple to dust, get conquered by a neighboring nation, assuming you haven't conquered the whole world, or the freedom fighter rebellions will finally succeed. It's pretty much inevitable, just a matter of when.
So you denied those evil gods a couple of souls. whew big deal. Sure pissed them off, but in the great scheme of things you accomplished absolutely NOTHING.

Besides for the flesh to stone solution, all it takes is a group of evil clerics, or some powerfull demon gating in, empowered by their gods with a version of "Mass Shatter" (or something to break the statues) and a "Mass Stone to Flesh" and then get into the place where you store all those statues. Instant gross mess and lots of souls for the underworld.

[hamishspence]

I agree, it makes no sense, but most I read about D&D afterlife contradicts something you read somewhere else. And your statement might be right, but why would people still worship them? They all would think that they are the ones that are worthy, they're the devout followers that get rewarded. Even if none of them actually are, they'll still try their best.

This is pretty much what FC2 says- most evil mortals know very little about the afterlife. Even if they are aware that souls get tortured to the point where they lose all identity, they will assume that they personally are exempt- and that they will be able to skip the process and become a fiend with all memories and personality that they had in life.

Acheron (and Pandemonium, technically) are not even "mildly evil aligned" as planes- although they are technically considered Lower Planes.

[Ranos]

.

Are you implying such a fascist state wouldn't make for a formidable antagonist for our PCs ?

I think an interesting way of turning that into a campaign would be to start our PCs as Evil-hunters, starting them with the usual quests, subdue a power-mad wizard, stop a vampire-infestation (vampires turn people evil, so they'd probably be the most hated critter around)... As time goes on, the jobs would start to get more and more ****ed up, less and less clear cut. It'd start with mafiosi and smugglers, then agents of other nations, people who aren't necessarily evil but working against the regime's interests, then maybe all the way down to tracking down a simple teacher who pings as evil, hidden away by one of his students.

If they methodically turn all of them to stone without questionning themselves, the players themselves will slowly turn evil. They've reached what the higher-ups call the "Inquisitor expiration date". Will they manage to hide their condition, dutifully turn themselves in for the brainwashing camps, or flee and become outcasts or rebels ?

[hamishspence]

It is an interesting point- at what point does denying evil people their "right to be evil-aligned" become "oppression"?

Dragonlance handled it rather poorly- the Kingpriest set out to destroy everyone on the planet who was evil, regardless of exactly how deserving of death or not they were, and yet, in the novels, it was suggested that he was still Good.