Help our group choose a new gaming system.

[Alejandro]

The setup:

Our gaming group is about to finish a 3.5 D&D campaign. The majority of the group is entirely sick of 3.5 and utterly resolved not to play another 3.5 campaign. Not going to go into why, exactly, since I don't want this to be an argument thread about what is or is not wrong with 3.5.

So.. those of you who have experience going from 3.5 to ?, could you share some advice or experiences? We are currently examining 4E, Pathfinder, and Savage Worlds, but have only just started, so there are no strong preconceptions.

P.S. The group consists mostly of experienced, long term gamers.

[Xuc Xac]

Unless you can tell us the specific problems your group is having with 3.5, I would suggest Savage Worlds. 4E and Pathfinder are just more D&D and might not be far enough removed from 3.5 to escape the problems you're having.

Savage Worlds is a fun versatile system for action-oriented games, but it is quite different from D&D so you'll need to be prepared for that before jumping in. I've seen a lot of long time D&D players run into problems when they try to play Savage Worlds like they would play D&D (for example SW has no dump stat so min-maxing your stats usually comes back to bite you: getting that max isn't often worth having the min). If you enjoy D&D between levels 5 and 15, you'll probably like Savage Worlds, but it doesn't handle the extremes (weak little nobody and demigod) very well.

[LibraryOgre]

It really depends on what your problems are with 3.5. Tired of medieval campaigns? Tired of mounds of crunch? Tired of umpteen books?

[Alejandro]

Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

[LibraryOgre]

My current hobby horse is Castles and Crusades. It's based on a combination of 1e D&D and d20... it has things like ascending AC and a single resolution mechanic, but it's got a fairly simple and straightforward system, with characters who avoid a lot of extraneous crunchiness. It mods very easily, especially if you're familiar with earlier editions.

[derfenrirwolv]

So.. those of you who have experience going from 3.5 to ?, could you share some advice or experiences? We are currently examining 4E

Cardboard. Its balanced because everyone has essentially the same ability.

Pathfinder

Is 3.75, what 3.5 should have been in the first place. Without know exactly why your group doesn't like 3.5 anymore, I'd hazzard a guesse that this will be waaaay to close to 3.5 for you. CODzillia is still in effect, but toned down. Everything is in one book, and fighters get feats to take all the way to 20. They're still well behind the spellcasters though.

and Savage Worlds

Mechanically simple , pretty lethal, and its different. Doesn't have nearly the range of options that 3.5 does though.

but have only just started, so there are no strong preconceptions.

i think it would be easier if we knew what TYPE of game you wanted to play... three muskateers, dungeons and dragons withtout the 3.5, you may want to try whitewolf for a bit.

[Kalrik]

I like the flavor in pathfinder. Every class has something cool enough that multiclassing or dipping isn't as required, at least, imo.

Another great system is Mutents and Masterminds. One can build almost anything in that system.

[Alejandro]

We want to play D&D, without the problems I mentioned above.

[chaotoroboto]

Yeah, Savage Worlds is really good as a collaborative storytelling exercise, probably better than any other system. 4E is 3.5 with, to me, more engaging combat. And as DM, much less paperwork than anything ever. For a player benny, 4E character creation is almost as flexible as 3.5 without so many totally thrashed out combos. Pathfinder is out of my purview because it seemed silly with 3.5 and 4E both so near to hand, but I hear great things.

I haven't run anything long with it, but Savage Worlds is great for:
- Narrative puzzles
- Splitting the party
- Player input
- Mapless games
- Unique worlds

In one Savage Worlds game I played in, players got "world bennies," which allowed us to set events in motion. As an example, the one I think that was given to me, let's say you're chasing someone down the up escalator, crowded with people. You make your roll to keep from falling down, and you mess it up. You use a normal benny to reroll. This time you get it right, but te perp is still ahead, he turns the corner. You spend a story benny: The janitor is mopping up a giant spill. Now the guy has to make his roll to keep from slipping and falling. He fails and you've caught him.

I've also started on some SW one shots but never gotten enough people around a table at the appropriate time.
- The true meaning of Thanksgiving: everyone plays as either a Puritan or an Indian with secret powers and together they fight off an alien invasion.
- The true meaning of Christmas: A reality show in which contestants fight to the death to become the new Santa Claus. SW includes vehicle rules that would make Reindeer Sleigh Death Races super simple.
I've also considered running a Cowboy Bebop setting, and I know there's a giant Iron Kingdoms fan community that's converted that setting. There's a setting book "Low Life" where you play as things living in the sewer. One option is a sentient twinkie.

If you have a DM who relishes story flexibility, then Savage Worlds is definitely your system. If you want complex and engaging tabletop combat rules, then 4E for sure.

[mobdrazhar]

The only one of the systems mentioned that i have tried is 4e. I enjoy it and and all but there are about i think 12 books that can be used for character creation (if you want access to all races and classes available and all powers available to the classes), although all the rules required for playing are in PHB1.

[Jallorn]

Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

I won't suggest GURPS then. In all seriousness, I've yet to find a system that doesn't have lots of "stuff" and/or balance issues. Though if you avoid magic, the D20 system is pretty balanced for the most part.

[Ozreth]

The more and more I visit forums, I can't help but feel that people burn themsevles out on great systems by reading far too much into the rules and crunch side of it, and trying to build the most mathematically sound character possible.

It's sad. My group will jsut throw together some fun characters out of the 3.5 PHB1 and be on our way, using the RAW and never really noticing if one character is "better than the other" because there is nothing wrong with that, its a group game, you should feel lucky to have a strong character on your team : )

Anyways, as somebody said earlier, 4e and PF are still d&d, 4e being the more secluded option.

How about going an entirely different route and trying something like Legend of the Five Rings?

[RebelRogue]

Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

If you'd still like to play a fantasy game, it sounds like D&D 4e might be a good match for you. It essentially cleans up exactly these things and makes all the class choices worthwhile. And it's still D&D (despite what anyone might tell you), so all the basic concepts should be familiar. YMMV, though; it's not for everybody.

If you want to stray from the fantasy genre, Savage Worlds is a great, fast and fun system for just about anything (gleaned from my somewhat limited experience with it). It seems to work especially well for unique, stand-alone ideas/adventures.

[Knaight]

If you need something light, Fudge is always an option, however I would go with Savage Worlds for a while. Once Blood Sweat and Steel hits print (it is done except for the magic system, play testing continues, and some rewording and art), get it instead. Its aimed at Sword and Sorcery instead of High Fantasy, and is one of the best games I've played in years. And I don't just say that because I've had a hand in the development.

[Mando Knight]

Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

4e both has this problem and doesn't have it. Most players will still want the splatbooks for their characters: Divine Power for clerics and paladins, Martial Power for Rogues and Fighters, Arcane Power for Wizards and Bards, and so forth, but they usually won't be looking to cherry pick one thing out of each book in print. To simplify the issue more, WotC introduced their toolsets, the Character Builder and the Compendium, which lets a player sift through their options with just a laptop rather than leafing through five books to create an intricate web of references.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

So long as you know what your class is supposed to be doing (crowd control, walling off the big brutish guy from hitting your pals, putting band-aids on everyone, etc.) 4e is pretty balanced. The difference between fully twinked out characters and "for fun" characters is still there, but you won't feel the burn just because you brought a Monk or Runepriest to the table rather than a Ranger or Cleric.

[TaintedLight]

I've recently fallen in love with the over-the-top awesomeness that is Exalted. No level mechanic and you can have a finished character sheet in five minutes.

[Crow]

The more and more I visit forums, I can't help but feel that people burn themsevles out on great systems by reading far too much into the rules and crunch side of it, and trying to build the most mathematically sound character possible.

I agree, dude.

[Balain]

Well if you want to stick with D&D I would say go with 4e.

I do know about getting burned out so we will switch systems now and then. I would look at coda I think it is. They made a Lord of The Rings game based on it.

Or you could go with an old system Runequest or Rolemaster or MERP.

Ars Magicka could work well. Pendragon perhaps.

When we get really burned out we will switch from fantasy to something different all together like Superheroes or spies or Vampire or call of cthulhu.

I haven't played it yet but heard good things about riddle of steel.

[BobVosh]

I've recently fallen in love with the over-the-top awesomeness that is Exalted. No level mechanic and you can have a finished character sheet in five minutes.

O.o
Woah, how often do you make characters? I didn't even make throwaway NPCs that fast in exalted.

Exalted is fun, however it too is splat book heavy. Even worse for the DMs.

I would recommend a peek at deadlands. Not the D20 one, but whatever the other one is called. Using savage worlds rules is usually a bonus. Fun, unique characters that work reasonably well for balance. The big bad huckster of many spells? Balanced when he must fight the reaper for his soul when he got caught cheating. Avoiding spells is best for him, if possible.

Sounds like you still want fantasy, so a lot of other games I liked won't be readily available. Try GURPS, D&D setting + great mechanics, from what I heard. I never actually got a chance with that one.

[Noneoyabizzness]

vampire the dark ages,all flesh must be eaten (preferably the fantasy suppliment), 2e

all fun classics

[Kylarra]

I like Star Wars Saga Edition. Sure everyone wants to be a jedi, but there's enough tricks to go around that the other classes aren't bad choices either.

[BobVosh]

I like Star Wars Saga Edition. Sure everyone wants to be a jedi, but there's enough tricks to go around that the other classes aren't bad choices either.

All about adept or soldiers with gernades :D

[Kiren]

I hear great things about gurps, though if you want to get into sci-fi you will need 1 source book to make it work. (Normal book handles it but I hear it is a bit lacking resource wise.) The main book on its own is still great for fantasy settings I hear. Rules are mostly common sense I hear, with optional rules that make the game more realistic while be easy to remember. Its classless with characters created by a point based system.

These are things I heard about gurps. Never tried myself, but I suggest looking it up.

[Kurald Galain]

Not going to go into why, exactly, since I don't want this to be an argument thread about what is or is not wrong with 3.5.

Sure, but the question why your group is tired of 3E has a big impact on what game we'll suggest for them.

...or not, we can all simply point out our favorite game anyway


In my experience, usually when a group is tired of some game, they want a genre shift, not a rules shift. So let me suggest the following genres,

• Horror. Call of Chthulhu is a great choice; Wraith: the Oblivion is also solid if your group can handle that.
• Modern-day supernatural dystopia. Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage are all great games that everybody should check out at least once.
• Parody. With an experienced group, you can't go wrong with a few sessions of Paranoia.
• Weird genre mix-ups. If you can find it, check out TORG; it is better than it sounds.

[Gahrer]

I hear great things about gurps, though if you want to get into sci-fi you will need 1 source book to make it work. (Normal book handles it but I hear it is a bit lacking resource wise.) The main book on its own is still great for fantasy settings I hear. Rules are mostly common sense I hear, with optional rules that make the game more realistic while be easy to remember. Its classless with characters created by a point based system.

QFT
I'm starting a GURPS campaign soon after DM:ing a long 3.5 one. The normal 2 books, "players handbook" and "DM guide", works just fine for fantasy but you might need one more for sci-fi.

[potatocubed]

If you're burned out on 'stuff' and imbalance...

Pathfinder has fewer options for character gen and is consequently much more manageable. I would personally choose PF over 3.5 just because of this. That said, it's still got all the combat options and it still gets really screwy with the power balance at high levels because it's basically '3.5 + houserules'.

4e has more 'stuff' than Pathfinder but less than 3.5. Balance is a lot better, at the cost of a certain amount of verisimilitude. 4e handles combat really well, and everything else not so well. The new Dark Sun stuff is pretty good.

I haven't played Savage Worlds, but from reading the book I wasn't very impressed. I'd recommend FATE or Fudge instead. I have played Gurps, briefly, and I didn't like it at all.

Alternatively, one of the old-school retro-clones (S&W, OSRIC, C&C) might be your cup of tea - there's far less stuff to worry about, that's for sure. I've only played a little high-level AD&D, so I can't comment on the balance.

[The Rose Dragon]

If you want to play D&D without playing D&D, I suggest you try All Flesh Must Be Eaten with the Dungeons & Zombies supplement. And then throw out the zombies. It uses the fantastic Unisystem, which can be found in Witchcraft for free. Plus, Unisystem is infinitely more flexible than D&D couldn't even hope to be.

Really, though, we don't know what you want from a new game other than "not D&D". That would help us help you help yourselves.

[Alejandro]

We don't really need or want to play a totally different genre. Our group has multiple running games. One of us GMs D&D. I GM D6 Star Wars. Another GMs a Mage game from WOD. And so on.

In this case, the D&D 3.5 game is coming to an end, and we want to start a new D&D game, but not 3.5.

[Dizlag]

I recommend Savage Worlds for any genre of gaming. It has a great fantasy setting called Evernight and a steampunk setting called Slipstream (I think this is the one where you're like sky-pirates ala Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow feel.

Savage Worlds has a "Fantasy Companion" book which has your D&D-like races and spells. As the Game Master, Savage Worlds has very little prep-time ... just have a rough outline of an adventure and go. Want a more in depth campaing? Then use their "plot points" structure for it in that the adventurers have certain plot points to complete the campaign. Throw some side adventures in there to get them some XP and ranks, then steer them back to the main campaign arc.

We've been enjoying The Day After Ragnarok campaign setting ... an alternative WWII era where the Nazi's raised the Midgard Serpent, the Americans nuked it, and the whole world has been tossed upside down.

Again, Savage Worlds Explorer's Guide (core rules) is good for any genre of roleplaying and at $10 for the main book ... you can't go wrong. Most of the campaign settings are about $20 with The Savage World of Solomon Kane a good $30 or so ... a beautiful book and looks like a ton of fun!

If you have any questions about Savage Worlds let me know!

Oh, one more thing ... I totally agree with Mark Hall about Castles and Crusades. It's a great system bringing old skewl D&D back using a d20 rules light system. A bit more reform and I really like it as well.

Good luck,

Dizlag

EDIT: Forgot to add my thoughts on C&C.

[Pronounceable]

Go ADnD then. It's DnDer than 3E, that's for sure. Or maybe stuff like Castles and Crusades or Hackmaster that was made to emulate old school RPGing could work (but I haven't seen those).