Railroading My PCs

[AdamSmasher]

I'm running a campaign right now where the PCs are going through a dungeon to get the MacGuffin. The problem is, I don't want them to actually be able to get it. If they do, the second stage of this campaign will be entirely too easy.

So my current plan is for the PCs to enter the final chamber of the dungeon to see one of the BBEGs minions trying to teleport in (The place is supposed to be warded, but the BBEG's got some bad mojo).

If they try to interract with him at all, I figure that will be the point when the teleport finishes. If not, it will finish just before they grab the artifact.

There will be a fight and the PCs will most likely lose, resulting in the artifact being hauled away. I don't intend to have them be blatantly steamrolled by the minion, I'll make it a good fight.

So what do you think? Would this make you feel robbed as a PC? Is there any way I could do it better?

[Teln]

I don't intend to have them be blatantly steamrolled by the minion, I'll make it a good fight.

Plan for what's going to happen if they win and loot the MacGuffin. Right now.

[Boci]

MacGuffin needs bateries? Easy plot hook.

[Marillion]

Plan for what's going to happen if they win and loot the MacGuffin. Right now.

+1

I wouldn't feel cheated, so long as it seemed like I had a chance to get the macguffin.

[Zombieboots]

Why not have the minion teleports right when the PCs get there and already be in front of the artifact. Also perhaps he should bring along some minions to slow the PCs down while he teleports away.

MacGuffin needs bateries? Easy plot hook.

Damn fine idea.

[Ignition]

I'm in favor of MacGuffin Needs Batteries. Or if the MacGuffin they see is actually only part of a larger MacGuffin (the aforementioned batteries, not the actual artifact itself).

[Wreckingrocc]

The teleportation bit would actually leave me feeling rather robbed; rather, I'd have the BBEG hire some sort of badass-and-possibly-more-powerful foe to guard the person extracting it, hence the "fight they will lose". If they're forced to flee without even encountering the artifact, it would feel more like a failure of a difficult or potentially impossible test than it would getting "robbed" or railroaded.

EDIT: Whoah, super ninja'd

[bobspldbckwrds]

or do something like my dm did, and make them sorely regret picking up the mcguffin...

stupid inteligent artifact...
stupid low will save...
stupid needing to get somewhere fast...

[GameSpawn]

I think I would feel cheated (and that the circumstances were awfully contrived) if the teleportation finished just as I was about to grab the Macguffin. I would probably not feel that way if the BBEG finished the spell as I was arriving, particularly if the BBEG is the type to revel in his enemies fear/despair/other bad emotions, and I had to fight a bunch of minions instead of getting the Macguffin.

[Grommen]

In these cases you sometimes need to erect a PLOT shield. Very simply counter all their plans, but you have to do so in a manner that makes it look like just their bad luck or your really good luck. It is not easy but it can be done.

The other thing you need to do is plan for the worst. Always assume that they will come up with something you didn't think of and they will take your thingie you don't want them to have. Then think of a back up plan.

[The Big Dice]

Let them know the BBEG has minions that are on their way to claim the McGuffin. If you can, let them meet the henchman in charge of the operation.

Or better still, turn it into the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark. After finally getting hold of the dratted thing, all battered and spelled out, the PCs emerge from the dungeon. Only to be surrounded by the Henchman and his force of minions.

"Dr. Jones. Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away."

[Tyndmyr]

I'm running a campaign right now where the PCs are going through a dungeon to get the MacGuffin. The problem is, I don't want them to actually be able to get it. If they do, the second stage of this campaign will be entirely too easy.

So my current plan is for the PCs to enter the final chamber of the dungeon to see one of the BBEGs minions trying to teleport in (The place is supposed to be warded, but the BBEG's got some bad mojo).

If they try to interract with him at all, I figure that will be the point when the teleport finishes. If not, it will finish just before they grab the artifact.

There will be a fight and the PCs will most likely lose, resulting in the artifact being hauled away. I don't intend to have them be blatantly steamrolled by the minion, I'll make it a good fight.

So what do you think? Would this make you feel robbed as a PC? Is there any way I could do it better?

Yeaaah. Some place they can teleport into, but I can't, better be explained by more than "bad mojo". As in, actual rules. If you don't want the PCs teleporting around everywhere, don't rely on it for your baddies.

Nothing wrong with throwing some obstacles in the path of the Macguffin, but if they get it, they get it. Don't bend or break rules to make it not happen. Plan out what happens if it does.

[Boci]

Yeaaah. Some place they can teleport into, but I can't, better be explained by more than "bad mojo". As in, actual rules. If you don't want the PCs teleporting around everywhere, don't rely on it for your baddies.

One rule that could work is that you can teleport out but not in.

[Tyndmyr]

Now, that could be fun. Would even be a fun general rule for a type of forbiddance fields. After all, teleporting out of dungeons is generally less exploitable than teleporting past things.

In general, I reccomend against making MacGuffins too plot-central for this reason. It ends up being a linear "player chasing it" vs "you trying to keep it away". It can easily get repetitive, and using <large number> of MacGuffins instead doesn't help with that.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Let them know the BBEG has minions that are on their way to claim the McGuffin. If you can, let them meet the henchman in charge of the operation.

Or better still, turn it into the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark. After finally getting hold of the dratted thing, all battered and spelled out, the PCs emerge from the dungeon. Only to be surrounded by the Henchman and his force of minions.

"Dr. Jones. Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away."

I like the former, but not the latter.

Never set up a "false choice" for the PCs. Having the PCs run into the Chief Henchman and fight him, only to find out that the MacGuffin was already gone is one thing; having the PCs be presented with an unwinnable combat is another entirely. In the first, the PCs discover that they've just missed the MacGuffin - but at least they had a chance to find out where it was taken or somesuch. In the second case, the PCs discover that, even though they have the MacGuffin, they were not going to be allowed to keep it.

From the DM's perspective, these situations may look indistinguishable, but believe you me: they're a world apart from the eyes of a PC.

[Severus]

+1

I wouldn't feel cheated, so long as it seemed like I had a chance to get the macguffin.

This. If you want them to have no chance, don't do this to them. As a player, I HATE when I waste a lot of time and then just get screwed by the GM.

If you really don't want them to get the artifact, then make the point of the dungeon crawl something else.

[Shademan]

evil officer followed by two mooks meet players in corridor prior to macguffin
evildude: I was expecting you, blahblahblah blaaah! long have I waited to test my blade against you blahblahblaah"
players: ...mine?
evildude: I'm totally lawful evil! let my two mooks go, they are like family to me and is NO match for you, lie lie lie!
players lets the mooks go and DUEL the bad oficer dude!
mooks had macguffin ):

[Umael]

Why would the minion teleport there right as the PCs get to the MacGuffin chamber?

1) The PCs did something just prior that let the minion teleport in just in time. I.e., to get to the Chamber Room, they had to drop the forcefield that surrounded the Chamber Room, protecting the MacGuffin.
2) The minion was already there, waiting for them.
3) The minion, and the MacGuffin, were long gone.

Don't have the minion teleport in just as the PCs arrive. That's contrived. Really contrived.

[The Big Dice]

I like the former, but not the latter.

Never set up a "false choice" for the PCs. Having the PCs run into the Chief Henchman and fight him, only to find out that the MacGuffin was already gone is one thing; having the PCs be presented with an unwinnable combat is another entirely. In the first, the PCs discover that they've just missed the MacGuffin - but at least they had a chance to find out where it was taken or somesuch. In the second case, the PCs discover that, even though they have the MacGuffin, they were not going to be allowed to keep it.

From the DM's perspective, these situations may look indistinguishable, but believe you me: they're a world apart from the eyes of a PC.

Any hint of a defeat is going to send some PCs into fits of rage. I've seen it happen. Literally, the words "That can't happen to me, I'm a PC!" were used. It was quite embarrassing.

Imagine the PCs, all battered and bruised, covered in cobwebs. They burst out of the dungeon and collapse in relief. Only to have a heavily armed NPC party take the prize off them and thank them very much for their hard work.

For extra insult, give them some money.

The aim with a Raiders of the Lost Ark style scene, where the PCs get the hard earned MaGuffin removed at the end of Hovitos blowpipes isn't to make players cry. Well, it kind of is, but in a story driven rather than combat driven way. It's meant to make them do the hard work, then run away because they're in no shape for a knock down, drag out fight with an obviously superior foe.

After all, if you never run away, how do you get into epic chases?

[Oracle_Hunter]

The aim with a Raiders of the Lost Ark style scene, where the PCs get the hard earned MaGuffin removed at the end of Hovitos blowpipes isn't to make players cry. Well, it kind of is, but in a story driven rather than combat driven way. It's meant to make them do the hard work, then run away because they're in no shape for a knock down, drag out fight with an obviously superior foe.

After all, if you never run away, how do you get into epic chases?

I already know we have differing philosophies when it comes to DMing, so I won't make a big response.

However, remember that there is always a PC who wants to do things the hard way. When faced with unbeatable odds, he is going to try to run, or destroy the MacGuffin, or some third thing. You will either have to kill the PC (always a downer) or find some other way to neutralize him - which is just going to make him twice as tenacious the next time around.

However, if there is no possible way to "beat" to situation (e.g. the MacGuffin was gone before they get there) then you won't raise that animal spirit in your PC - they'll accept it as an unfortunate turn of events, rather than a challenge to be defeated.

[Greenish]

Any hint of a defeat is going to send some PCs into fits of rage. I've seen it happen. Literally, the words "That can't happen to me, I'm a PC!" were used. It was quite embarrassing.

The obvious answer to that is "well, I'm a mac!"

[JBento]

Except that PC's are quite attached to their loot - often, in fact, more than their lives. Having the McG taken from them as they exit the dungeon is just begging - BEGGING - for the PCs to find a way to at least one of them to run away with the McG.

Really, "hand it over or die" is only an effective threat on worlds devoid of afterlives with revolving doors.

[The Big Dice]

I already know we have differing philosophies when it comes to DMing, so I won't make a big response.

However, remember that there is always a PC who wants to do things the hard way. When faced with unbeatable odds, he is going to try to run, or destroy the MacGuffin, or some third thing. You will either have to kill the PC (always a downer) or find some other way to neutralize him - which is just going to make him twice as tenacious the next time around.

However, if there is no possible way to "beat" to situation (e.g. the MacGuffin was gone before they get there) then you won't raise that animal spirit in your PC - they'll accept it as an unfortunate turn of events, rather than a challenge to be defeated.

Players are nothing if not obstreporous

The way I'd handle removing the golden idol from the PCs is, they come hurtling out of the temple just as it collapses. Only to see that they are surrounded by a large number of mooks and a henchman. All the mooks have actions readied and you make it clear they'll effectively be getting a surprise round on the PCs if they go for initiative.

Let the players decide if they want to make a fight out of it or not. If they do, the Henchman uses his Dust of Dissapearance and the diversion caused by his minions getting butchered (or butchering the PCs) to get clear of the area, only to go to Plan B, whatever that might be. For me, that would be a high level Rogue.

In my experience, players will get more annoyed at what they perceive as moving goalposts than they will at recreating scenes from cool movies. If there was no way they could have got The Item, they'll (rightfully) feel that they've been railroaded in a bad way.

Where if The Item was taken from them in a memorable encounter, they'll (rightfully) feel the desire for getting even next time.

[Magesmiley]

One other notion is to have a group of NPCs who are also after the MacGuffin. Put some sort of an obstacle in the PCs' path that delays them considerably (time-wise), then when they get to the final room, have them find some slain guards, disarmed traps, and all the goodies gone. If it is real obvious that the competition was there only a short time before, most players will fume about how they were delayed. Some may even assume something more nefarious like the NPCs were waiting for the PCs to draw off the defenders before striking.

Leave a few clues who it was, but not where they went (making it effectively impossible to follow them at this time). Then when they are of an appopriate level for obtaining what they missed out on (i.e. after the second stage fo the campaign), give them some hooks that let them track the competition down.

[Umael]

RE: Entitlement

You might want to address that, either quickly OOC or subtly IC.

If the players feel that the plotline means "Go for the MacGuffin", then they feel that the MacGuffin is already theirs. So as GM, you need to tell them what your expectations are and listen to theirs. Even if you say, "You know, I'm not just going to hand the MacGuffin over," and they say, "Yeah, we know, we figured," that could be enough of a reality check that they'll remember and think, "Yeah, we actually have to WORK to get that!" when the minion runs off with the MacGuffin, laughing.

Subtle IC interaction is more complicated and drawn out. You have to give the PCs mini-goals, only to have a few of them stopped every now and then by NPCs. Kill this monster, get that treasure, woo that woman. Wash, rinse, rep- wait. Treasure #2 is missing. Um... re-peeaaatt- where's the woman? What's this monster corpse doing here!? Toss in a few IC interactions, maybe with someone who proclaims himself to be the rival of another PC, but not one they should attack, such as a snotty paladin.

("I say, are you Lord Percival of the Southern Ice Cross? Jolly good to meet you! I am Sir Heinrich von Trouncehammer, Warden of the Northern Marches and Bane to all Goblins! I understand you are a member of that quaint group, the Silver Hand. Are these ruffians about you your servants, or merely your syphocants? Nevermind, you, your betters are talking...")

If you can, the subtle IC is always better, because the players will know that sometimes the PCs don't get their goals, while furthering the sub-plots.

[Lord Vampyre]

Players are nothing if not obstreporous

Yeah, as a player I would get irritated either way, depending on how the GM presented it. Although, I've done both as a DM.

In my experience, players will get more annoyed at what they perceive as moving goalposts than they will at recreating scenes from cool movies. If there was no way they could have got The Item, they'll (rightfully) feel that they've been railroaded in a bad way.

Where if The Item was taken from them in a memorable encounter, they'll (rightfully) feel the desire for getting even next time.

This is the real trick in making the players happy. The more memorable the encounter, the less they tend to complain. For instance if the MacGuffin was stolen before they arrived, but there is another really cool magic item that the Henchman left in his hurry to steal the MacGuffin, the players don't tend to complain as much.

Although in the other scenario, if the players chose to fight, and pull off some amazing stunts only to find that they lost the artifact in the confusion, they still tend be excited.

Either way, it really has to do with the DMs skill with handling the players.

[darkpuppy]

I've not often used the MacGuffin Stolen plot in my games, but when I have, I've used the black arts of IC to keep them on track, by, ironically, doing the very thing Umael warns against... the snotty bloke everyone wants to kill. Only in this case, it was the villain himself, who had, as described in Umael's post, used the players as a distraction, gotten through the weakened guard on the MacGuffin, and then left them a note thanking the "petty little sword-swingers" for their assistance, further telling them that "Whenever [he] wished to retire to the afterlife", he would hire them as his personal guard so some hero would slay him quickly...

...naturally, they took this somewhat personally, and, despite not having a great track record for finding clues beforehand, mercilessly tracked down this villain, ruining all of his plans along the way as he was hatching them, and dispatched him in a (weeeellll) needlessly gruesome manner. Which then set the stage for their becoming villains themselves. Ahhh, good times.

[Crow]

Why not just have it gone before they even get to it? Like a few minutes too late.

I'm sure your group will have done something by that time to waste a few minutes;

"Of course REDGAR had to stop and stink up the bathroom before we entered the dungeon."

[Tiki Snakes]

You could even go further than that; It was long, long gone or even never there. And they find this out by catching the villain / etc standing over where it should be, raging impotently.

Bonus points if you manage to reveal later on that it WAS there all along, it was just unrecognisable.

[Logician]

give your players small victories, or create a event of significant importance alongside the loss of the McG. If it were me, I would have the PCs get to the McG chamber earlier than the baddies expected, they should be surprised to see them there. Have one of the BBEGs lead henchmen, perhaps someone they have encountered before, begin to panic knowing they probably don't have enough time to extract the artifact, and they probably dont stand a chance at actually defeating the party.

Then the lead henchmen/dragon/lieutenant/ect... tells all the other minor henchmen to continue with the extraction, be it transportation ritual or what ever, while he holds you off. This boss should fight with zealous ferocity, and it should be made clear he is intentionally sacrificing himself for his masters cause. The party will defeated him, but it will be to late, he held them off just long enough.

Your players wont feel cheated, and will probably find the encounter very fun. It will also flesh out the baddies, remember, your villains aren't the only ones with a consciousness (unless they are, such as with a necromancer or whatnot, and if thats the case sorry) and fleshing out the mooks will build a much better campaign.