[3.P] Has anyone redone the Stone Dragon discipline?

[Endarire]

EDIT: I added my revised Stone Dragon discipline on the Homebrew forum.

Having reread Stone Dragon today, I noticed the discipline is weak and restrictive. (Maneuvers and stances that only work on the ground and if you don't move more than 5' in a round? Really, now...)

I was considering revising Stone Dragon to be more in line with the other disciplines.

[TaintedLight]

There's a reason that Stone Dragon is bland and unimpressive compared to the other disciplines, and that's because it's available to anyone and many maneuvers have no prerequisites. Look at Mountain Tombstone Strike. Any 17th level initiator can learn that without ever having tried a Stone Dragon technique at any point in their careers.

[cupkeyk]

I think the weakness of stone dragon is intentional because its available for all martial adepts and because each new maneuver has less prerequisites than other maneuvers of the same level as other disciplines. And that's how its strong.

[TaintedLight]

I think the weakness of stone dragon is intentional because its available for all martial adepts and because each new maneuver has less prerequisites than other maneuvers of the same level as other disciplines. And that's how its strong.

This.

The problem with the philosophy of "fewer prereqs means less power" is that most other disciplines have good maneuvers that you'd want to take that you can use to qualify for other maneuvers later anyways. Call me crazy, but I'm fine with knowing Greater Insightful Strike, Avalanche of Blades, Moment of Alacrity, and Quicksilver Motion to qualify for Time Stands Still. All of them are potentially very useful.

[Saph]

Plus Mountain Hammer is one of the best 2nd-level choices. There's nothing wrong with having a generic discipline that's slightly less powerful than the others.

[Endarire]

Mountain Tombstone Strike seems like the exception. Many if not most maneuvers have prerequisites, though they seem lesser than other disciplines.

I'm torn on the notion of requiring prereqs on maneuvers and stances. Why do they have prereqs beyond initiator/class level when more powerful abilities - spells - don't?

The notion of an intentionally weak discipline that everyone can use seems like bad design.

[Saph]

I'm torn on the notion of requiring prereqs on maneuvers and stances. Why do they have prereqs beyond initiator/class level when more powerful abilities - spells - don't?

They're supposed to represent martial skill. You have to master the fundamentals before you can progress on to the advanced techniques. It also makes a character feel more thematic - you can specialise in particular disciplines and benefit from it.

Spells can't work that way because every caster class learns spells differently. If you require a spellcaster to know 3 fire spells before they're allowed to cast Wall of Fire, a wizard doesn't care (because they know about 100 spells anyway) while a sorcerer is going to go nuts.

The notion of an intentionally weak discipline that everyone can use seems like bad design.

If Stone Dragon was more powerful than Iron Heart, there'd be less reason to play a Warblade. If it was more powerful than Devoted Spirit, there'd be less reason to play a Crusader. It makes sense that the unique schools should be slightly more powerful.

[Adumbration]

I don't think anyone has redone the Stone dragon, at least from what I gleaned with my google-fu. At the very least, not on these forums.

[TaintedLight]

The notion of an intentionally weak discipline that everyone can use seems like bad design.

Hear, hear. I think it occupies an important place in the design space of ToB to have such a freely accessible discipline, but it's true that it kinda sucks too much to really devote precious maneuvers known to more than once or twice in a character's career when compared with the host of other, better options.

On the notion of spells with prerequisites, that could be the basis for an interesting homebrew...

[Endarire]

At present, the most compelling reason I have to take Stone Dragon maneuvers is if I'm a level 1 Crusader at level 1.

Devoted Spirit has the lovely healing maneuvers and stances. Iron Heart has Steel Wind, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, and Wall of Blades. Shadow Hand has Island of Blades and Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink. Setting Sun lets me throw enemies while yelling, "Hadoken!"

Thematically, I agree with prerequisites indicating the necessary training. Practically, it's an ability tax which keeps me from nabbing the juiciest level-appropriate abilities. Balance-wise, because ToB is dip-friendly, there probably had to be prerequisites.

[Saph]

At present, the most compelling reason I have to take Stone Dragon maneuvers is if I'm a level 1 Crusader at level 1.

I think you're not looking closely enough. In terms of pure damage output, the low-level Stone Dragon manuevers are among the best out there. Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, and Bonecrusher are all solid, no-frills ways to hit an opponent really hard, and have no prerequisites at all.

[lord_khaine]

Another minor bonus from stone dragon is that the dicipline weapons are pretty good.

[Oslecamo]

I don't think anyone has redone the Stone dragon, at least from what I gleaned with my google-fu. At the very least, not on these forums.

No need for that, the people who think Stone Dragon is too weak* will cheese their way out by puting earth inside their boots. There, their foots are now always in contact with earth!

*And still want to play it instead of the other 8 base schools or one of the dozens of homebrew schools out there.

[Lapak]

The dip-friendliness mentioned by Endarire goes beyond martial adepts, as well; Stone Dragon's relative lack of pre-reqs makes it a stronger-than-usual discipline for characters that are just grabbing a maneuver or two through feats, as well.

[Esser-Z]

The Mountain Hammer line is awesome, man. I can punch my way through ANYTHING. Metal door? PUNCH! Walls? PUNCH! GIANT MONSTER? PUNCH!


(Anyone have a nice directory of the homebrew ones, or at least links thereto? I'd rather not have to search myself >.>)

[Runestar]

Or being able to tunnel through an adamantine wall with only a spoon...

[Esser-Z]

Or with only your FACE!

[DragoonWraith]

Overall, I think Stone Dragon is a bit less powerful and often less interesting than other disciplines. Most of the effects are (appropriately) very no-frills, "I do extra damage" or "I ignore DR" or "I gain defensive bonus X". While not necessarily bad, they're a bit uninteresting and also don't do a whole lot to perform what is, in my mind, Tome of Battle's most important function - to create new options for melee. For the most part, Stone Dragon effects were things melee could already do. Better, because it's more flexible, but still.

Anyone have a nice directory of the homebrew ones, or at least links thereto? I'd rather not have to search myself >.>

The Age of Warriors project is trying to do exactly that.

[JaxGaret]

If so, where can I find his work?

Having reread Stone Dragon today, I noticed the discipline is weak and restrictive. (Maneuvers and stances that only work on the ground and if you don't move more than 5' in a round? Really, now...)

I was considering revising Stone Dragon to be more in line with the other disciplines.

It would be much less bothersome to simply lift the placement and movement restrictions, rather than rewriting the discipline. They're not terribly necessary.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Given how it literally takes a second (at the very worst) for a trained martial artist to assume a proper (full or half) horse stance, there really is no reason for the movement limitations beyond WotC's typically retarded thematic > mechanic mindset. Even more to the point, if one is walking on effectively solid air, the principle behind "drawing power from the earth" remains completely intact. I'd be curious to see how removing those taints affect the style's overall potency and viability.

[Endarire]

I added my revised Stone Dragon discipline on the Homebrew forum.

[Esser-Z]

Given how it literally takes a second (at the very worst)

You mean like a SWIFT ACTION?

[ErrantX]

Eh.... I don't think Stone Dragon needs a revising.

It has plenty of strong strikes and abilities and while not as mechanically diverse and interesting as say Iron Heart or White Raven, it's got its place and its niche. It really is perfectly fine the way it is.

-X

[Person_Man]

I for one disagree with the contention that Stone Dragon is weak and/or needs to be revised. Stone Dragon focuses on defense, battlefield control, and teamwork (pushing enemies around, provoking AoO for your allies). Other disciplines focus more on offense. Not every build is all about maximizing the damage output per round. And even if it was, you get a lot more damage out of full BAB, Pounce, and the Power Attack feat tree then you get from any maneuver.

Also, the Deepstone Sentinel is also a great PrC, especially if you do a lot of dungeon crawling. Mountain Fortress Stance is awesome (enemies can't Charge or take 5 ft steps through the difficult terrain surrounding you), Passwall lasts for hours, Stone Curse, Dragon's Tooth, and Awaken the Dragon are excellent for battlefield control, and have Save DCs of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str mod.

[ErrantX]

Definitely seconding Person_Man here. Very well said. +1.

-X

[DragoonWraith]

Deepstone Sentinel is awesome, I agree.

But it's not that Stone Dragon is defensive that bothers me, it's that so much of the mechanics were things that melee could already do, as opposed to adding new things. *shrug*