Anima Mage

[DragonsAion]

With all the talk about the Truenamer and Tome of Magic I thought I would ask the playground what it's thoughts were on the Binder PRC called the Anime Mage.

I'm in a game right now and if anything happens to my current Character i'm thinking of making one.

[Quirp]

It is a solid PrC and can be used for some persist spell abuse. Since you can enter it with only one level of binder (thanks to the improved binding feat) you don´t lose many caster levels or have to invest several feats into it.

[Ramza00]

Anima Mage, allows you to get several all "day abilities" for only the loss of 1 caster level. Think of it as making your wizard or sorcerer more "warlock" like. Furthermore unlike a warlock you can change the abilities each day, one day you may use it for the summon monster/daze of zcerytl and the next day you may be crafting magic items with astaroth. (who needs scribe scroll or craft wondrous item when you have astaroth).

[HunterOfJello]

It's definitely one of the top PrCs in the game.

[DragonsAion]

Reading through the fluff it says that a sorcerer or warmage would work due their main stat being CHA. I'm AFB right now, but what feats would you take or suggest.

[Quirp]

Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Improved Binding

the rest depends on your characters focus (binder main, caster secondary or caster main, binder secondary), if you want a focused caster with some binding ability you have to know, what your caster wants to do in combat.

If you go for warmage empower spell is a good choice. Metamagic reducers are good on any caster, although you have a build in ability to circumvent some high cost metamagics.

[WinWin]

it is possible to create a Binder without a good charisma score. Many abilities do not require saving throws and failing a binding check can offer some roleplaying fun.

Wizard works well. Chain Spell is good, so is Extend spell which sets you up for Persist. If you take the Improved Binding feat, then a metamagic at level 3, you will be able to qualify with Binder1/Wizard 3.

Warmage is ok...but works a lot better with an expanded spell list. The Same could be said of Dread Necromancer and Beguiler. They are definately good options compared to Wizard and have a single attribute dependancy.

[true_shinken]

I have a doubt about Anima Mage. From what I've seen on the book, any 3rd-level Wu Jen or Wizard could qualify by taking Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige as his feats.
However, during the GSA Iron Chef, some people complained about this being illegal. Is there something I'm not seeing here? Is it illegal or not?

[gorfnab]

It does make for an interesting metamagic forcused build like:
Wizard 2 (Sanctum or Precocious)/ Binder 1/ Anima Mage 10/ Incantatrix 7

[WinWin]

I have a doubt about Anima Mage. From what I've seen on the book, any 3rd-level Wu Jen or Wizard could qualify by taking Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige as his feats.
However, during the GSA Iron Chef, some people complained about this being illegal. Is there something I'm not seeing here? Is it illegal or not?

It is legal. However. You still require intimidate as a class skill in order to qualify early. Martial Study (devoted spirit) would do it.

Also, the vestiges and abilities would be limited to the ones provided by the Bind Vestige Feats. Effective binder level would improve for binding checks, but no expanded abilities would become available.

My IC entry was technically legal, but did not function the way I thought. It could still exploit corrupt magic and the Anima Mage features, but gained next to nothing from the binder side. Just the abilities granted by the feats.

Kind of invalidated the story I had for the character. One Binder Level and Improved Binding would change that. It would also free up 2 feats...

[Koury]

I have a doubt about Anima Mage. From what I've seen on the book, any 3rd-level Wu Jen or Wizard could qualify by taking Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige as his feats.
However, during the GSA Iron Chef, some people complained about this being illegal. Is there something I'm not seeing here? Is it illegal or not?

Let's see here...

Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks
Feat: Any metamagic feat
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Special: Ability to bind a 2nd-level vestige

OK, Human Wizard 1, with two flaws.

Bind Vestage (H)
Improved Bind Vestage (F)
[Metamagic] (F)
Martial Study [Devoted Spirit Maneuver] (W) (Scribe Scroll traded for Fighter Bonus Feats)
Precocious Apprentice (Lvl 1)
4 points into Intimidate and K: Planes

Level 2 can be taken in Anima Mage, as far as I can tell.

[Demons_eye]

It is legal. However. You still require intimidate as a class skill in order to qualify early. Martial Study (devoted spirit) would do it.

Also, the vestiges and abilities would be limited to the ones provided by the Bind Vestige Feats. Effective binder level would improve for binding checks, but no expanded abilities would become available.

The way it is worded in the book is that you gain levels in binder not advance them. So using this way to enter does not limit you to the feat vestiges.

[Koury]

The way it is worded in the book is that you gain levels in binder not advance them. So using this way to enter does not limit you to the feat vestiges.

Yep, though you do actually get kinda worse at binding for a level or so due to DQing yourself from Bind Vestage and Imp. Bind Vestage.

My build above at 1st level can bind any vestage up to 3rd and gain a single ability that they can grant. At 2nd he can only bind a 1st level vestage (though he gains all abilities they grant). At level 3 he takes Improved Binding (retraining if possible) and is right about where he should be again.

EDIT: Of course, ideally you'd retrain IBV into IB at level 2 upon entering into Anima Mage and retrain BV into something else at 3 in addition to gaining your normal feat.

[WinWin]

The way it is worded in the book is that you gain levels in binder not advance them. So using this way to enter does not limit you to the feat vestiges.

That was how I thought it worked. I do not know now. In an actual game I would probably use at least one level in Binder if I were to play such a build.

[Demons_eye]

Yep, though you do actually get kinda worse at binding for a level or so due to DQing yourself from Bind Vestage and Imp. Bind Vestage.

My build above at 1st level can bind any vestage up to 3rd and gain a single ability that they can grant. At 2nd he can only bind a 1st level vestage (though he gains all abilities they grant). At level 3 he takes Improved Binding (retraining if possible) and is right about where he should be again.

EDIT: Of course, ideally you'd retrain IBV into IB at level 2 upon entering into Anima Mage and retrain BV into something else at 3 in addition to gaining your normal feat.

Question: Why do you have to retake Improved Binding?

[Koury]

Question: Why do you have to retake Improved Binding?

Improved Binding and Improved Bind Vestage are two very different feats.

[Demons_eye]

Improved Binding and Improved Bind Vestage are two very different feats.

Ahhh, I miss read your build. I thought it had Improved Binding first level not Improved Bind Vestige.

[Vinyadan]

I have a doubt about Anima Mage. From what I've seen on the book, any 3rd-level Wu Jen or Wizard could qualify by taking Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige as his feats.
However, during the GSA Iron Chef, some people complained about this being illegal. Is there something I'm not seeing here? Is it illegal or not?

I confirm, it is illegal. Text says:

Feat: Bind vestige: special: characters who have the ability to bind vestiges trough other means (such as the soul binding class feature) cannot take this feat. If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefit.

To be an Anima Mage you need skill ranks and:
-ability to bind 2° level vestiges
-any metamagic feat.

Assuming you somehow manage to get the metamagic feat, as soon as you gain the first level of Anima Magus your soul binding ability increases as if you had also gined one level in the binder class. This means you lose the benefit of the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, which means that you bind like a first level binder, which means you no longer qualify for the PrC. I think this was done deliberately.

[Greenish]

Assuming you somehow manage to get the metamagic feat, as soon as you gain the first level of Anima Magus your soul binding ability increases as if you had also gined one level in the binder class. This means you lose the benefit of the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, which means that you bind like a first level binder, which means you no longer qualify for the PrC. I think this was done deliberately.

The question is, do you have to qualify for a PrC you're already in. (Dragon Disciple says noooooo!) The SRD only says you need to meet the requirements to take the first level in the PrC.

But yeah, that's been debated at length before.

[Vinyadan]

The question is, do you have to qualify for a PrC you're already in. (Dragon Disciple says noooooo!) The SRD only says you need to meet the requirements to take the first level in the PrC.

But yeah, that's been debated at length before.

It surely would be hilarious if it was possible to be part of a class for which you don't qualify anymore, in a RPG point of view.

"Minion! Bind this vestige and use its power to craft something useful!"
"Do you actually use minions to do such complex things?"
"Well, I can't do them myself, since I got my new powers."
"What? But your powers are supposed to make you... more powerful!"
"And more responsible, too".
"Responsibility has nothing to do with this!"
"Well, the responsibility which falls upon the GM to avoid such crap does."

[Koury]

I confirm, it is illegal. Text says:

Feat: Bind vestige: special: characters who have the ability to bind vestiges trough other means (such as the soul binding class feature) cannot take this feat. If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefit.

To be an Anima Mage you need skill ranks and:
-ability to bind 2° level vestiges
-any metamagic feat.

Assuming you somehow manage to get the metamagic feat, as soon as you gain the first level of Anima Magus your soul binding ability increases as if you had also gined one level in the binder class. This means you lose the benefit of the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, which means that you bind like a first level binder, which means you no longer qualify for the PrC. I think this was done deliberately.

If you can retrain, this issue is avoided entirely. If not, then simply take one more level of Wizard (or Master Specialist, if you can qualify). Its not like you aren't gonna run out of AM levels before your teen levels anyway.

[DragonsAion]

I think at MIN you have to be a 3rd lvl wizard/ 3rd lvl binder before you can get into the class with out any shady tricks.

[Koury]

I think at MIN you have to be a 3rd lvl wizard/ 3rd lvl binder before you can get into the class with out any shady tricks.

Shady tricks? There are Binders who don't take Improved Binding?

I always assumed the intended level of entry was 5. Wizard 3/Binder 1.

[Vinyadan]

I think the improved binding feat was created with this purpose, actually. I wouldn't call it a shady trick. The vestige feats seem to have been thought well.

[DragonsAion]

I meant shady as in trying to be a binder without being a binder a la feats. a binder gets 2nd lvl vestiges at 3rd lvl and a wizard gets 2nd lvl spells at 3rd lvl so without feat tricks you would be going into the class at level 7 and when all is said and done you have 3 lvls to play with.

I'm AFB right now so this is off the top of my head.

[Greenish]

It surely would be hilarious if it was possible to be part of a class for which you don't qualify anymore, in a RPG point of view.

Well, Dragon Disciple entry requirements say you can't be a half-dragon, and guess which template the capstone gives you?

[Zaydos]

I can see calling Precocious Apprentice a shady trick.

I can see calling the illumian trick a shady trick (although I have been willing to allow it once because he needed the power boost of getting into a theurge class 2 levels early).

Improved Binding? No it's not shady at all.

Improved Vestige Binding? I'll hit you over the head with the Tome of Magic and say not in my game. Whether it is RAW legal or not it's not RAI and wizards don't need the boost.

[yosho]

Well, Dragon Disciple entry requirements say you can't be a half-dragon, and guess which template the capstone gives you?

About the whole losing prerequisites thing. I remember if you failed to meet them you just couldn't take more levels in that class. Since the dragon disciple capstone is the last level it really doesn't matter now does it?

[Demons_eye]

About the whole losing prerequisites thing. I remember if you failed to meet them you just couldn't take more levels in that class. Since the dragon disciple capstone is the last level it really doesn't matter now does it?

I could be wrong but I think you lose all class features of the PrC if you lose the prerequisites.

[Greenish]

I could be wrong but I think you lose all class features of the PrC if you lose the prerequisites.

There are no prerequisites for PrCs, only entry requirements.

Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

A few books detail what happens when you stop qualifying for the PrCs in the book, but as far as I know none presents a general rule.