Fighters

[Kaskos]

Heya Guys,

I thin kits the child in me, but i have always wanted to play a Ninja or a Samurai in DnD but always been denied by my DM as 'its not in keeping with the campaign' or 'you cant - no' and it seems Samurai is hated around here.

I am not gonna ask why it is hated, i am going to ask is there a way to perhaps take the fighter and make him Ninja-ish?
I do want combat, not skills and i have most books. No ToB though and preferably no PHB II but can anyone help me?

Maybe its a case of aesthetically looking like a Ninja and jsut taking EWP - Bastard Sword?

Any tips or ideas, i'd appreciate it

[dragonsamurai77]

Ninja didn't use katanas, and would actually be more like a Rogue. They were actually extremely weak in a stand-up fight, and certainly didn't wear armor.

[Gray Mage]

Heya Guys,

I thin kits the child in me, but i have always wanted to play a Ninja or a Samurai in DnD but always been denied by my DM as 'its not in keeping with the campaign' or 'you cant - no' and it seems Samurai is hated around here.

I am not gonna ask why it is hated, i am going to ask is there a way to perhaps take the fighter and make him Ninja-ish?
I do want combat, not skills and i have most books. No ToB though and preferably no PHB II but can anyone help me?

Maybe its a case of aesthetically looking like a Ninja and jsut taking EWP - Bastard Sword?

Any tips or ideas, i'd appreciate it

If you're looking for a ninja, maybe a rogue would be a better choice as it's easier to sneak around and could be a good combatant, even if nota front-liner, with TWF.

[Mushroom Ninja]

If you're dead-set on the fighter class, you'll have to do something about your skills. You'll definitely want decent Hide, Move Silently, Balance, and Tumble. I would recommend dipping a level or two of Rogue to fix that.

Alternatively, if you're not dead-set on the fighter class, going straight rogue might be the way to go. It's got the skills for a ninja-like thing and has the sneak attack, which fits thematically with your idea.

[Kaskos]

Ninja didn't use katanas, and would actually be more like a Rogue. They were actually extremely weak in a stand-up fight, and certainly didn't wear armor.

And Katana / Bastard Sword was more the Samurai side of things.
I know Ninja's relied on stealth and surprise - much like the assassin i guess. Take your time, get a hit in, and get out pronto

[Kaskos]

Am not set on anything yet, this campaign hasnt started but i seen posts about ClericZilla and was tempted by that, but then the child reared its head and got me thinking Ninja-esque again

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd say Ronin / Samurai should be pretty easy to pull off. Just pack up in something less than plate and more than chain, Bastard-Sword Proficiency for your 'Katana', and play it like a samurai, with dollops of Honour and either serving or no-longer serving a feudal master. Pretty much job done then and there.

If Samurai are firmly a no, simply play it without ever, EVER using the word. To make doubly sure, describe the Katana but don't use that name either. It's just a slightly curved, single edged bastard sword.

Things that might be worth looking at; If you could get stuff from (i think) Oriental Adventures through, there's Iaijutsu, a skill of some sort that gives (Damage?) when attacking at the same time as drawing the weapon. Possibly a prestige class in the same place, I'm not sure.

Or if you prefer the katana's can totally cut a tank in half thing, Shock-Trooper uber-charger should do it, I believe. Don't know which book that's in, though.

[Kaskos]

I'd say Ronin / Samurai should be pretty easy to pull off. Just pack up in something less than plate and more than chain, Bastard-Sword Proficiency for your 'Katana', and play it like a samurai, with dollops of Honour and either serving or no-longer serving a feudal master. Pretty much job done then and there.

If Samurai are firmly a no, simply play it without ever, EVER using the word. To make doubly sure, describe the Katana but don't use that name either. It's just a slightly curved, single edged bastard sword.

Things that might be worth looking at; If you could get stuff from (i think) Oriental Adventures through, there's Iaijutsu, a skill of some sort that gives (Damage?) when attacking at the same time as drawing the weapon. Possibly a prestige class in the same place, I'm not sure.

Or if you prefer the katana's can totally cut a tank in half thing, Shock-Trooper uber-charger should do it, I believe. Don't know which book that's in, though.

What do i need for this Uber Charger? its quite a few feats isnt it?
But that feat or class Iaijutsu sounds cool.
Sounds good with a charge too - uber damage with a big ol' sword stuck in you

[Swok]

What kind of ninja do you want here?

A straight Swordsage does a semi-mystical ninja very well with a focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers. toss in some diamond mind and setting sun for other "ninja" things.

[Kaskos]

What kind of ninja do you want here?

A straight Swordsage does a semi-mystical ninja very well with a focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers. toss in some diamond mind and setting sun for other "ninja" things.

I dont know the Swordsage... where is that from?

[Greenish]

Or if you prefer the katana's can totally cut a tank in half thing, Shock-Trooper uber-charger should do it, I believe. Don't know which book that's in, though.

Shock Trooper is in CWarrior, Leap Attack in CAdventurer, Valorous weapon property is in Unapproachable East, Power Attack and Imp. Bull Rush are core, Pounce is usually gained via CChampion's barbarian ACF, Whirling Frenzy is a rage variant from UA, and the optional Frenzied Berserker is from CWarrior.

That's the basics, embellish according to taste. (Though the real "cut tanks with katanas/your face" would be in ToB.)

[Edit]: Swordsage is from ToB, and thus not available.

[Kaskos]

Shock Trooper is in CWarrior, Leap Attack in CAdventurer, Valorous weapon property is in Unapproachable East, Power Attack and Imp. Bull Rush are core, Pounce is usually gained via CChampion's barbarian ACF, Whirling Frenzy is a rage variant from UA, and the optional Frenzied Berserker is from CWarrior.

That's the basics, embellish according to taste. (Though the real "cut tanks with katanas/your face" would be in ToB.)

[Edit]: Swordsage is from ToB, and thus not available.

Thats a hell of alot of feats and yeah, i heard ToB has the uber fighters but we dont have that book so i cant get to use anything from it

[Tiki Snakes]

What do i need for this Uber Charger? its quite a few feats isnt it?
But that feat or class Iaijutsu sounds cool.
Sounds good with a charge too - uber damage with a big ol' sword stuck in you

I'm hazy on the specifics, but a quick google search should pull up more info.
Off the top of my head, Uber-Charging often boils down to taking a high strength, full Bab class, two handed weapon and power attacking. If you can get Shock trooper, that means that instead of losing to-hit, you drop your armour. But if you hit them hard enough on the attack, it doesn't matter.

google-fu
The 'true' Ubercharger basically used damage multipliers to do horrible, horrible damage.
Apparently the core is stuff like Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack.
Leap Attack is Complete Adventurer and multiplies the power attack damage, whilst Shock Trooper keeps your chance of hitting up.

Apparently there is a Book called 'Unnaproachable East'. It has a feat called 'Battle Jump' that was also used. It seems to be used when falling though, so not sure how that would be used with the rest of a normal charge routine, even with leap attack specifying a jump as part of it.

Oh, and Pounce is also good, apparently. Complete Champion has Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, apparently, who gets it at Level 1 instead of fast movement. Pounce means making a full attack after charging, or something like that.

Take all the above with a pinch of Salt. I don't play the edition anymore, I just watch the forums.

I'm sure some of the regulars could pimp your Ronin out much more comprehensively.

[Eldariel]

Am not set on anything yet, this campaign hasnt started but i seen posts about ClericZilla and was tempted by that, but then the child reared its head and got me thinking Ninja-esque again

There's no reason that in a world where magic exists, a Ninja couldn't be a spellcaster. Maybe your Cleric is a Ninja? That's actually quite in line with how they're portrayed in popular fiction though of course historical accuracy flew outta the window long ago. Cloistered Cleric with Trickery-domain has a good bunch of skills you want, and spells to be physically formidable while also having the option of a more discrete approach.

[Greenish]

Thats a hell of alot of feats and yeah, i heard ToB has the uber fighters but we dont have that book so i cant get to use anything from it

That's 4 feats.

Warblade and maneuvers are available online legally. Maneuvers progress much like spells, so you'd have 2nd level maneuvers at level 3, and 3rd level maneuvers at level 5.

[Tiki Snakes]

To sum up my understanding;
Power attack with a two-hander gets double the penalty you take as extra damage. Can only PA for up to your BAB though.
Shock trooper puts this penalty on your AC instead of your AB.
Leap Attack would triple the bonus damage you get from two handed power attacking, (Turning power attacking for 1 into a bonus of 6 damage?)
Pounce, via the barbarian alt, turns the 1 charge attack into a full attack. I think this means you get the leap attack bonus on all hits?

Imp Bull rush would be a prerequisite for shock trooper or so, right?

And Whirling Frenzy gives an extra attack per round at the highest bonus, (but a -2 bonus to all attacks that round, which should be balanced by the strength increase anyway I'd have thought). So by the time you've got an iterative attack, you charge in with a jump, swing wildly three times and do enough damage to liquidise most things, or that's the idea anyway.

[Harris the Ford]

To sum up my understanding;
Power attack with a two-hander gets double the penalty you take as extra damage. Can only PA for up to your BAB though.
Shock trooper puts this penalty on your AC instead of your AB.
Leap Attack would triple the bonus damage you get from two handed power attacking, (Turning power attacking for 1 into a bonus of 6 damage?)
Pounce, via the barbarian alt, turns the 1 charge attack into a full attack. I think this means you get the leap attack bonus on all hits?

Imp Bull rush would be a prerequisite for shock trooper or so, right?

And Whirling Frenzy gives an extra attack per round at the highest bonus, (but a -2 bonus to all attacks that round, which should be balanced by the strength increase anyway I'd have thought). So by the time you've got an iterative attack, you charge in with a jump, swing wildly three times and do enough damage to liquidise most things, or that's the idea anyway.

THIS. that is the character I'm playing right now. I didnt totally optimize with the barbarian but added some flavor from another class as well. I strike at around 200-350 damage every attack. level 16.

[Devils_Advocate]

Why would you want to turn a Fighter, of all things, into a ninja? That's crazy talk! A samurai Fighter (or Paladin), on the other hand, would be quite workable.

Combat and skills are not mutually exclusive. Ambushes rely on stealth, Tumble helps with mobility, etc.

If you want to make a ninja character without using any "oriental"-flavored material, I don't really see how it requires any more than playing a Rogue and having your Rogue wear a black jumpsuit and, um, one of those... black... hat-mask... things.

The actual Ninja class from Complete Adventurer is basically a cross between Rogue and Monk.

There's no reason that in a world where magic exists, a Ninja couldn't be a spellcaster. Maybe your Cleric is a Ninja? That's actually quite in line with how they're portrayed in popular fiction though of course historical accuracy flew outta the window long ago. Cloistered Cleric with Trickery-domain has a good bunch of skills you want, and spells to be physically formidable while also having the option of a more discrete approach.

I dunno, I think that something more like Arcane Trickster or Psychic Rogue would work better for a magic!ninja.

[gomipile]

The Generic Warrior from the SRD can be set up to fit pretty much any martial flavor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...es.htm#warrior

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Am not set on anything yet, this campaign hasnt started but i seen posts about ClericZilla and was tempted by that, but then the child reared its head and got me thinking Ninja-esque again

Well, why not play a Ninja ClericZilla? Cloistered Cleric (From Unearthed Arcana, Pg. 50) has a lot of skills (6/level off a good list), a version of Bardic Knowledge called Lore, and proficiency with light armor and simple weapons, and some early/different spells. Combine this with any of the following:
- Divine Oracle (Complete Divine, Pg. 34) for Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and Trap Sense (but not Trap Finding, unfortunately).
- Sacred Fist (Complete Divine, Pg. 59) is good if you want to go unarmed and unarmored (as text trumps table, therefore it is a full casting class) and it gets decent skills/level.
- If you can convince your DM to allow it to advance spellcasting rather than providing its own (rather lackluster) casting, Temple Raider of Olidammara (Complete Divine, Pg. 67) provides a little sneak attack, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, and suchlike, but I wouldn't take it unless it advanced preexisting spellcasting.
- Magical Trickster (Complete Scoundrel, Pg. 45 loses one level of casting, but gets you some bonii to skill tricks and a once/day DMMish effect (You may apply one metamagic effect to a spell without increasing the spell's level - Persistant Divine Power anyone?).
- Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel, Pg. 67) also provides for skills and skill tricks, and advances any one class' class features (Turn Undead, Spellcasting, Sneak Attack, etc.) for two out of three levels.
- If your DM will allow it, a divine casting Daggerspell Mage (Complete Adventurer, Pg. 32) advances skills, sneak attack, attacking with daggers and spells, and some other things - it'd be pretty good for a Cleric Ninja.
- Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer, Pg. 72) is pretty meh in my opinion, it advances Divine casting and sneak attack but has some pretty steep requirements RP-wise (LG alignment, evil-hunting attitude and beliefs, etc.) but might work, depending on the campaign.

As you can see, there are plenty of options, but it all depends on what your definition of "Ninja" is. If you want to play a sneaky combatant then Cloistered Cleric 20 with persisted Divine Power will basically do you, especially if you can get (a preferably persisted) Hunter's Eye for sneak attack. One thing you may have noticed is that there is no Cleric/Rogue prestige class, which I consider unfortunate, as Cloistered Clerics make excellent skill-monkeys. Perhaps your DM would be open to homebrewing one? As far as races and feats go, Changeling from the Eberron Campaign Setting or Monster Manual III would do you well - they're sort of a mini-Doppelganger, and can change their appearance virtually at will. For feats, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion is great, though depending on your DM's reading of the Cloistered Cleric's skills list (namely if trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion would take all the Knowledges away from your skill list) it may be worth picking up independent of the Domain/Devotion trading mechanic; Travel Devotion would definitely be worth it, in order to get full attacks and moving in the same round; Able Learner (I think from Races of Destiny) is great if you dip rogue 1 and are allowed it (Changelings, according to the designers, should be able to take it as it is available to Humans and Doppelgangers, and they are a mix of both. Sadly I cannot find the quote that I'm paraphrasing.); Extend Spell and Persist Spell are virtually the Cleric's Natural Spell; Zen Archery is good if you want to do some archery.

I'm sure someone else will be able to give you more help on being a Ninja ClericZilla. But again, I'd ask, what do you want your Ninja to be? A master of disguise, a highly skilled assassin, a sneaky combatant, or a combination of the three? I'm sure that a cleric can do it all (that's part of what makes them so good) but it'll likely take some work to get precisely what you want.

And, hilariously enough, I've been Ninja'd (way to go Eldariel) while discussing Ninjas.

Edit: Oh, and Factotum 1/Cloistered Cleric X with able learner makes everything a class skill (and cost as such) forever, which is good for a Ninja. Also, if your DM is up to it, a Divine Unseen Seer would be great for you, as it will net you spellcasting, sneak attack, skills, and Hunter's Eye, it's pretty much perfect.

[Knaight]

Thats a hell of alot of feats and yeah, i heard ToB has the uber fighters but we dont have that book so i cant get to use anything from it

Is that the complaint? That can be fixed.

As for Samurai being hated around here, that is only the Complete Warrior class, not the concept. The Oriental Adventures class is rumored to be decent as well, I don't know well enough to confirm or deny.

[Lhurgyof]

I'd say pick up Oriental Adventures. The samurai in that book is MUCH better. And ninja would use ninja-to, not katanas.

[Pronounceable]

A point that seems to have been missed in these posts is the level of optimization/complexity allowed/expected in the game. If the party and/or DM is going for the old classic fighty fighter+sneaky rogue+healy healer+blasty blaster and you show up with an übercharger or something off the net, it won't look pretty.

[Greenish]

The Oriental Adventures class is rumored to be decent as well, I don't know well enough to confirm or deny.

It's not that brilliant, either. Good fort & will, 4+int skills from a decent list, gets free masterwork weapons at level 1 that can be upgraded by sacrificing money. Handful of bonus feats from a very limited list (though you do get to pick which list you want).

No other class features.

[gomipile]

It's not that brilliant, either. Good fort & will, 4+int skills from a decent list, gets free masterwork weapons at level 1 that can be upgraded by sacrificing money. Handful of bonus feats from a very limited list (though you do get to pick which list you want).

No other class features.

Doesn't it get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill?

[Greenish]

Doesn't it get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill?

Yeah. I guess that's something, but still it's a rather lame class. No class features aside from bonus feats, which it gets less than fighter from a more limited list.

[Kaskos]

I think i am just stuck on what to take to be honest.

I want someone fun to play that can hit hard and not fall over after being sneezed on overall.
And also, without stepping on the toes of my mates Barbarian.

[Greenish]

I think i am just stuck on what to take to be honest.

I want someone fun to play that can hit hard and not fall over after being sneezed on overall.
And also, without stepping on the toes of my mates Barbarian.

How about a totemist (MoI), psychic warrior (EXP/SRD) or a duskblade (PHBII)? I notice you said preferably no PHBII classes, but duskblade is a fun single class gish.

Other than those, rogue or daring outlaw can work pretty well.

[Tyndmyr]

It's not that brilliant, either. Good fort & will, 4+int skills from a decent list, gets free masterwork weapons at level 1 that can be upgraded by sacrificing money. Handful of bonus feats from a very limited list (though you do get to pick which list you want).

No other class features.

It's pretty much only useful in extremely low wealth games. Then, you drop a few points in crafting, and use that(and crappy, unusable loot) to power your magic weapon. When you're the only person with a decent magical item, it makes a big difference. On another note, one of the clans in OA, I forget which, exports opium, and imports iron. If you have a friendly wizard with wall of iron, starting your own opium ring can be fun for everyone. In more normal games, there's not really a reason to pick it.

I stand by my principles. Ninja do not actually exist. This is obvious, because nobody has ever seen one.

[Kaskos]

How about a totemist (MoI), psychic warrior (EXP/SRD) or a duskblade (PHBII)? I notice you said preferably no PHBII classes, but duskblade is a fun single class gish.

Other than those, rogue or daring outlaw can work pretty well.

Daring outlaw is interesting - obviously, i couldnt take the generic route with all sorts of manoeuvres and what not but the idea could work.

Although the HP i'd have would suck.