The Diplomancer... where is it?

[TechnOkami]

The title says it all. I'd like a link to the original build of the diplomancer, since I have no idea where it is.

[Zeta Kai]

There isn't a specific build for Diplomancy, just as there isn't a specific Batman-Wizard build. It's a conceptual family of builds which works toward reaching the same goal: utter pwnage of the Diplomacy rules to make everything with an INT>3 your loving friend, whether they like it (or it would even make sense) or not.

That being said, the Giant himself discusses the exploitable problems with Diplomacy here. In that article, you can find the following quote under section #1 of Surveying the Rule:

It has a flat DC that is too low; a 2nd level bard turning a hostile character to indifferent is DC 25; seems "tough, but doable". But it's actually child's play. With a 16 Charisma, 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff (which grants a +2 synergy bonus), and 5 ranks in Sense Motive (which also grants a +2 synergy bonus), and (new in 3.5!) 5 ranks of Knowledge (nobility) (which yes, ALSO grants a +2 synergy bonus), the 2nd level bard already has a +14 and only needs a 11 or better to succeed. And that's without spending a feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy) or Persuasive. Now here's the real problem: at 11th level, that same bard will have 9 more ranks in Diplomacy and probably at least an extra +1 from Charisma; he can now succeed on a roll of 1, which means he doesn't have to roll. He can automatically turn all hostile people indifferent by talking to them. He has 9 more levels of adventuring before he goes epic, but he can already make every enemy he meets apathetic to his existence.

So, if you follow the bard route above, you should be charming beholders, kings, & assassins in no time.

[Zaydos]

Level 1 Marshal (Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Motivate Charisma Aura).
Level 2 some better class with Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nob & Royal) on its class skill list; preferably Cha focused (Bard).

Get a +25 and you only need a 10 to make someone indifferent as a full-round action (it's a -10 to do so, normally the check is 1 minute). Put your highest stat possible in Charisma, get a Crown of Persuasion (+3 Competence bonus to Charisma checks and skills) if you can't get a custom item of diplomacy. Play a half-elf (+2 to Diplomacy) while you're at it.

Assuming 18 starting charisma:
Lv 1: Persuasive (feat), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (marshal bonus feat), +4 (Motivate Charisma), 4 ranks. +19.
Lv 2: +6 synergy, 5 ranks. +26.
By Lv 8 you ought to be able to afford a Crown of Persuasion and/or a +2 Cha item and have +36 or +37. Congratulations, by level 8 if it has a language and can understand you, you can take 6 seconds to make it not care about your existence. On a 1.
Throw in a level of Mindbender for Telepathy and now you don't even have to speak the same language.

Diplomacy breaks games.

[PId6]

One I made at ECL 5 for both Bluff and Diplomacy optimization:

Venerable Half-Elf Cloistered Cleric 1/Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Incarnate 1

Ability: 18 Cha + 3 Age + 1 Level + 2 Enhancement = 24 Cha
Flaws: Noncombatant, Murky-Eyed
Traits: Illiterate (Bluff), Polite
Skills: Bluff 8, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (Royalty) 5, Sense Motive 5, 2 ranks in Literacy, rest in every Speak Language ever
Feats: Sacred Vow [BoED], Nymph's Kiss [BoED], Complementary Insight [RoD], Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Bonus], Skill Focus (Bluff)
Stuff: Community Domain [SpC], Trickery Domain, Knowledge Domain, Motivate Charisma aura [MH], Beguiling Influence invocation [CA], Silvertongue Mask soulmeld [MoI], Naberius vestige [ToM]
Items: Circlet of Persuasion [4,500 gp], Cloak of Charisma +2 [4,000], Masterwork Tools of Bluff [50 gp], Masterwork Tools of Diplomacy [50 gp]

Bluff:
8 ranks
+7 Charisma
+7 Motivate Charisma
+4 insight Silvertongue Mask
+2 circumstance Nymph's Kiss
+3 Skill Focus
+6 Beguiling Influence
+1 Illiterate
+3 competence Circlet of Persuasion
+2 circumstance Masterwork Tools
Able to take 10 (Naberius)
= 53

Diplomacy:
8 ranks
+7 Charisma
+7 Motivate Charisma
+9 synergy (Complementary Insight)
+4 insight (Silvertongue Mask)
+2 racial
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Community Domain
+2 circumstance Nymph's Kiss
+6 Beguiling Influence
+1 Polite
+2 perfection Sacred Vow
+3 competence Circlet of Persuasion
+2 circumstance Masterwork Tools
Able to take 10 and use as standard action without penalty (Naberius)
= 68

[El Dorado]

And now you know why you can never say no to certain NPCs.

[ericgrau]

IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

[El Dorado]

IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

So you make your players actually roleplay it out? You fiend!

[DementedFellow]

If you are ever going to try to get a diplomancer in-game, then my advice is not to dip into too many classes, as it draws attention. A DM is more apt to take a bluff-focused build and if you concentrate on that more early on, he'll forget about the diplomacy.

Then at a pivotal moment throw it out there. Use it as a backup weapon to surprise even your DM. Otherwise, be prepared to fight a lot of constructs and undead.

[averagejoe]

Does synergy stack? They're same-named bonuses, and I've yet to come across any rules provision that specifically stacks synergy bonuses. How is this justified?

[DementedFellow]

It's not really a "synergy" bonus, rather an unnamed bonus that skill synergy provides. It's unnamed and applies.

[averagejoe]

Ah, so it is.

[cupkeyk]

Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?

[PId6]

Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?

Half-elf bard substitution level from RoD.

[El Dorado]

I pointed my DM to that article's revised Diplomacy skill and he implemented it in our game. He seems to like it. Don't know how it would fare against a Diplomancer.

[Hirax]

Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?

This brought to mind the Evangelist PrC for me.

[Jallorn]

1 level of Warlock will net you +6 to Diplomacy. (and bluff and intimidate, but that's beside the point)

[TechnOkami]

...there's an actual Giant in the Playground... D: ...please don't eat me...'

And YFI: I'm not interested in becoming a diplomancer. My girlfriend who plays a vampire and plans to go bard with Master of Masks however, does, or at least wants to do something along those lines.

[Draz74]

Classes that are good for Diplomancers:

• Marshal: double your Charisma bonus (which eventually becomes huge), and gain Skill Focus (diplomacy) as a bonus feat.
• Binder: take 10 on Diplomacy checks, and more importantly, make Diplomacy checks as a standard action without penalty in combat. The class doesn't actually give you a higher bonus to your Diplomacy check, but at least it does have it as a class skill, as well as some of the synergy skills.
• Warlock/Dragonfire Adept: both have an Invocation that will give you a +6 bonus to Diplomacy. DFA seems like a better class to me, for a Diplomancer; it gains more skill points and has more Diplomacy-supporting skills on its class skill list.
• Bard: Despite having all the skills that the Diplomancer cares about, Bard isn't actually anything special to a Diplomancer, unless you are playing Core-only or using Half-Elf racial substitution levels. Although if you like Bluff, too, Glibness is always tasty.
• Psion (telepath): an often-overlooked option. It has social skills on its class skill list, but the main real benefit here is the bonus feat at Level 1: pick Psicrystal Affinity and choose the Psicrystal personality that grants an additional +3 Diplomacy. It's like being able to take Skill Focus twice (and as a bonus feat each time). Not to mention, you can always pick Powers that fit thematically with the Diplomancer, like Attraction (additional Diplomacy bonuses if target fails a Will save), or Charm, or communication powers like Mindlink or Psionic Tongues. (The latter is better than arcane Tongues, but does require three levels of Psion rather than just a dip.)
• Incarnate: Silvertongue Mask. And essentia to power it.
• Exemplar: This one is actually disappointing, for a skill-focused and Diplomacy-focused class; +4 Competence Bonus is useless for a Diplomancer with good equipment choices, and Taking 10 with Skill Mastery is lame compared to what the Binder option can do at Level 1. Exemplar only actually shines if you do some crazy optimization on some other skill and use it to replace your Diplomacy checks, a la Jumplomancer hilarious cheese.
• Uncanny Trickster: the Social Recovery skill trick is decent for a Diplomancer with half-decent Bluff skill, just because it lets him reroll a failure. For a Diplomancer with super-optimized Bluff skill (e.g. Glibness), it's amazing. This PrC lets you use it twice per encounter, rather than just once.
• Rogue: Semi-noteworthy if you're a Changeling and take the racial substitution level.

Am I missing any more Diplomancer powerhouse classes?

[ericgrau]

Ah in that case you want:
Skills: Diplomacy, bluff, disguise, speak language
Spells: charm person, disguise self*, hypnotism, alter self*, calm emotions, detect thoughts, suggestion, charm monster, glibness, dominate person, modify memory, dream, nightmare, seeming, mass charm monster, veil

Maybe some illusions too: silent image*, ventriloquism*, major image*, mislead, project image
Maybe: comprehend languages*, tongues*

* Also works well on scrolls or wands, to help save her spells known.

A good DM helps too, one who won't draw up a fight, drop in the PCs and monsters and say "go at it". Instead one that will give you a chance to approach the enemies and find alternate means to handle them.

[Morph Bark]

There isn't a specific build for Diplomancy, just as there isn't a specific Batman-Wizard build. It's a conceptual family of builds which works toward reaching the same goal: utter pwnage of the Diplomacy rules to make everything with an INT>3 your loving friend, whether they like it (or it would even make sense) or not.

That being said, the Giant himself discusses the exploitable problems with Diplomacy here. In that article, you can find the following quote under section #1 of Surveying the Rule:



So, if you follow the bard route above, you should be charming beholders, kings, & assassins in no time.

You know, that makes me think... is it explicitly stated somewhere that synergy bonuses stack? Because bonuses of the same type, unless untyped, don't stack together. If synergy bonuses (which seem to be clearly typed) don't explicitly stack, well... that's that.

[DementedFellow]

You know, that makes me think... is it explicitly stated somewhere that synergy bonuses stack? Because bonuses of the same type, unless untyped, don't stack together. If synergy bonuses (which seem to be clearly typed) don't explicitly stack, well... that's that.

This has already been answered in this section, but fine, I'll quote the FAQ.

The text for synergy under the Diplomacy skill on page
72 of the PH states: “If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff,
Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get
a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.” I’m assuming that
means if a character has 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge
(nobility and royalty), and Sense Motive that the character
would receive only a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy
checks. Or would the character receive a +6 synergy bonus
(+2 for each)?
The bonuses listed in the synergy section of a skill
description are unnamed and so they stack. (There’s no such
thing as a synergy bonus in the current edition of the D&D
game.) The character in your example would receive a +6
bonus on Diplomacy checks.

[Kaww]

IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

I agree with you but you can take a -10 to the check and make it a full round action...

I get around that by saying to my players: "He is just not listening to you."
They know that actually means "No, not this time."

Besides, diplomacy does require the other side to listen to your proposal, so have a lot of deaf opponents ...

[dextercorvia]

@Draz74

Note: Bard has Speak Language as a class skill. Combined with the 6 skill points makes it a great choice to take at first level.

[Person_Man]

Am I missing any more Diplomancer powerhouse classes?

Binder is even better then you give him credit for. In addition to being a Cha based class with access to the awesome Naberius vestige (Continuous Disguise Self, Command at will, take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff, can make rushed Diplomacy check as a Standard Action with no penalty, fast healing of ability damage in case you want to use drugs to buff yourself further) at level 1, several other vestiges grant bonuses to social Skills and other goodies that a party face would want, like Telepathy, Speak With Dead, Bardic Knowledge, and Suggestion.


In addition, here are a few other things people might find helpful:

• Smooth Talk feat: When you rush a Diplomacy check, you only take a -5 penalty (instead of the normal -10). Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 43.
  
• Sociable Personality feat: You can reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check. Requires that you be a Half Elf. Races of Destiny pg 153.
  
• Spirit Sense: Let’s you see an interact with spirits of the recently dead (basically a continous Speak with Dead spell). “Sorry that we had to ambush you, but could you tell us your master’s weaknesses?” “Are you kidding me, you just killed me.” “Please? (My Diplomacy check is 52.) “Fine, fine. He’s vulnerable to fire.” Heroes of Horror pg 124.
  
• Undead Empathy: You can use Diplomacy to effect mindless undead. Eberron Campaign Setting pg. 61.
  
• Vow of Peace: Continuous Calm Emotions aura. A bonus to AC and Diplomacy. And if a creature strikes you with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must make a Fort Save or shatter. And Vow of Nonviolence (prereq) boosts the Save DC of many abilities by +4. The down side is that you have to vow never to harm any living creature, and your party has some strict roleplaying restrictions as well. Requires Sacred Vow, Vow of Non-Violence. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 48.
  
• Amulet of Aberrant Empathy: You can use a Handle Animal check in place of a Diplomacy check to influence the attitude of aberrations of 9 Int or lower. 1,400 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 132.
  
• Amulet of Peace: Twice per day you can replace your AC with a Diplomacy check for 1 round. 5,000 gp, Secrets of Sarlona pg 139.
  
• Choker of Eloquence: +5 or +10 competence bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (sing) Skills. 6,000 gp or 24,000 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 132.
  
• Mask of Lies: Disguise Self (+10 Disguise) at will, continuous Undetectable Alignment, and a +5 Competence bonus to Bluff. 17,000 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 134.
  
• Medal of Gallantry: +2 unnamed bonus Diplomacy, -2 Bluff, and Sanctuary 3 times per day as a Swift Action. Comp Adventurer pg 134.
  
• Pendant of Dragon Empathy: You can use a Handle Animal check in place of a Diplomacy check to influence the attitude of dragons of 11 Int or lower. 3,300 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 134.
  
• Ring of Truth Telling: Detect Thoughts and Zone of Truth. Champions of Valor pg 69.
  
• Wild Empathy: Although not as easy to buff as Diplomacy, you can still get it quite high with various magic items and soulmelds. Can be used to change the opinions of Animals and Magical Beasts with an Int of 1 or 2. A Beast Heart Adept. 1 level grants the Monstrous Empathy ability, which allows you to effect magical beasts regardless of their Intelligence. There's also the Scorpion Wraith (Secrets of Xen'drik) which allows you to treat Vermin as Magical Beasts for Wild Empathy.

Having listed all that, I have yet to encounter a DM who used the RAW Diplomacy rules. My groups all use some variation on "I'm the DM, you can use social Skills when the person might actually listen, and I set a reasonable DC, and your check is modified by how well you roleplay." So just before combat is usually ok (especially if you throw your weapons down or otherwise lull them into a false sense of security), but not if you're ambushed or in the midst of combat.

[HamHam]

For an example of a Diplomancer in action, go watch Doctor Who.

[Zaydos]

For an example of a Diplomancer in action, go watch Doctor Who.

Obviously they aren't playing by RAW diplomacy rules, though. He fails at it too often (if they were the Daleks would never say Exterminate again).

[Lapak]

Obviously they aren't playing by RAW diplomacy rules, though. He fails at it too often (if they were the Daleks would never say Exterminate again).

I'd call him a psuedo-Diplomancer who focused on Bluff, actually. He can convince anyone of anything... at least momentarily. Then the rest of his abilities kick in while they're distracted.

[Zaydos]

I'd call him a psuedo-Diplomancer who focused on Bluff, actually. He can convince anyone of anything... at least momentarily. Then the rest of his abilities kick in while they're distracted.

I'd actually agree, although I still say they aren't using RAW diplomacy (I only know one person who advocated RAW diplomacy and then only when playing; he also claimed +6 synergy bonuses at Lv 1 in 3.0).

[DeltaEmil]

For extra ownage, try the Jumplomancer, which Draz74 already mentioned.

[Mongoose87]

My favorite is still the not-to-be-mentioned-plomancer.