How do you kill a Paladin?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

In the Underdark game I'm DMing, the party paladin has become the most powerful member of the party and has wreaked bloody vengeance on every monster I throw at him. Because of this the party is still having fun but feels safe and unchallenged.
Do you know of any ways to terrorize a Paladin character without killing the entire party?

[Zaydos]

Which edition? From previous threads you've started I'm assuming 4e. Not the most familiar with the 4e paladin (good AC, some nice damage output, and not sure what all else).

[Yukitsu]

Unless the rest of your party is a samurai, a true namer and a commoner, a standard CR = to character level + a character review to make sure he's legit ought to do. Paladins are pretty darn weak, and if the problem is the paladin, you may want to consider buffing everyone else instead.

[Greenish]

My first thought was to make him fall, but that'd be mean and ill-spirited.

Well, actually my first thought was "paladin too strong, wut?", but I'm not familiar with 4e.

[Telonius]

What in particular about this Paladin is really powerful? As the others have said, Paladins are generally on the low end of the power spectrum. It's possible to get a particularly powerful combination (something like an ubercharger) but there are some pretty simple tactics you can use to neutralize this. What level is he, what feats does he have, and what sorts of magic items is he using?

EDIT: Oh yeah, what I just wrote is for 3.5. What's the edition here?

[Caliphbubba]

what, specifically, about the paladin is causing you problems? what edition is this?

[World Eater]

Just give everything +5 vs. Paladins.

[Tharck]

Try more challenging neutral encounters based in the underdark for a session. Toss some treasure that the other PCs will find useful and will buff them up some. This will allow you to bring a heavier hammer in future encounters that can dent the paladin without smashing the rest of the PCs into bloody bits.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

To clear up any confusion, I'm talking about 4e.

[Greenish]

Talking out of my derrière here, but 4e paladin is the tank, right? To challenge that, some untankable enemies would be in order. Flyers, sneakers, ambushes and the like are all a days job. Separating him from the others should allow you to play on his weaknesses, or just attack until his strength is no longer enough to easily overcome it.

Other option would be challenges unrelated on wreaking bloody vengeance on poor lil' monsters, such as a race against time to escape a creatively trapped maze, or trying to convince the law you're the good guys (preferably in a situation where "the law" has an army handy).

[mootoall]

A really mean trick for a paladin? If the party really needs him, drop some sort of force effect around him that separates him from the rest of the party, then make him watch them struggle against an appropriately CR'd encounter. That should be suitable to make a paladin feel horrible and useless.

[Lapak]

4e Paladin's role is Defender. The way that occurs to me to terrorize him is to harry the hell out of the rest of the group. Attacks from multiple directions at once, lots and lots of minions, terrain that makes keeping the enemy off his party's backs difficult. You don't have to threaten him at all to make him feel stressed; you just have to make his job difficult. IIRC, the Paladin is a fine single-target tank and weaker at holding multiple enemies at once. Give him a dozen wasps to swat instead of a single bruiser and he should sweat a bit.

[tcrudisi]

If it's 4e and you are using the char builder, can you show us the printout? If it's 3.5, then as everyone else says: I'm shocked. Pally's aren't exactly notorious for having a high power level.

Josha, what does the scouter say about the paladin's power level?
It's over nine thousand!
WHHAAATTTT??!!!! What?! WHAT?!
Josha, what does the scouter say about the paladin's power level?
It's over 9,000! Over 9,000! Over 9,000! 9,000!

[Tengu_temp]

How did a 4e paladin become that much more powerful than the rest of the party? If he focuses on defendery stuff, then his damage potential isn't that good. If he uses Divine Power options to improve his damage, then he should take a lot of beating from the monsters, and his damage still should be below a striker doing his job.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Talking out of my derrière here, but 4e paladin is the tank, right? To challenge that, some untankable enemies would be in order. Flyers, sneakers, ambushes and the like are all a days job. Separating him from the others should allow you to play on his weaknesses, or just attack until his strength is no longer enough to easily overcome it.

Other option would be challenges unrelated on wreaking bloody vengeance on poor lil' monsters, such as a race against time to escape a creatively trapped maze, or trying to convince the law you're the good guys (preferably in a situation where "the law" has an army handy).

Would lots of lurkers work?

A really mean trick for a paladin? If the party really needs him, drop some sort of force effect around him that separates him from the rest of the party, then make him watch them struggle against an appropriately CR'd encounter. That should be suitable to make a paladin feel horrible and useless.

Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

[Greenish]

Would lots of lurkers work?

Assuming they can hit and retreat quick instead of trying to go toe to toe with the paladin, and there being sufficient numbers of them.

[mootoall]

Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

Woo hoo, I'm participating!

[Eldariel]

Would lots of lurkers work?

Really, I'd probably go all the way and try Defilers; he can't shoot under Dark Swarm and Plague is gonna eat through his health, and that of the party, much faster than it can be restored (meaning they'll mostly just waste resources trying to restore it) while he gets Ultra-Ling'd.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I don't have a character sheet to readily show you but I can tell you this about him:

- Uses strength not charisma.
- Amazing damage output for his class.
- Above average hit points.
- Accurate attacks.
- Low-average defenses.
- Player is an optimizer.
- Lots of magic items.

[AtwasAwamps]

I don't have a character sheet to readily show you but I can tell you this about him:

- Uses strength not charisma.
- Amazing damage output for his class.
- Above average hit points.
- Accurate attacks.
- Low-average defenses.
- Player is an optimizer.
- Lots of magic items.

Standard strength-based paladin, probably. That's certainly what it sounds like. They can actually be QUITE strong, since even optimizing damage paladins have inherent boosts to their ability to staying standing.

My suggestions are cruel. Ranged minions. Things that brush off his marks. Things that hit hard and retreat. Sap his endurance. While the rest of the party maintains a line of fire on the enemies, hurl minions at him like there's no tomorrow.

It'll get him a crowning moment of glory as he goes down, taking one for the team, and you get to drop him.

[mootoall]

Well, I'm not sure if this is technically "legal" or "fair" by the rules, but would magic items be made regular items through the use of an AMF or dispell?

[dsmiles]

Paladin of whom, might I ask?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Standard strength-based paladin, probably. That's certainly what it sounds like. They can actually be QUITE strong, since even optimizing damage paladins have inherent boosts to their ability to staying standing.

My suggestions are cruel. Ranged minions. Things that brush off his marks. Things that hit hard and retreat. Sap his endurance. While the rest of the party maintains a line of fire on the enemies, hurl minions at him like there's no tomorrow.

It'll get him a crowning moment of glory as he goes down, taking one for the team, and you get to drop him.

Why thank you, I'm working on the encounter right now.

Paladin of whom, might I ask?

The lawful-good dragon god guy, you know.

[tcrudisi]

Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

If you are going to try something like that, make sure he has something to do. Don't just force him out of the combat and make him watch, give him a chance to participate. Yeah, he's stuck outside looking in, but he can manipulate something to drop stones from the ceiling on the bad guys in the other room. Or he can try to disable the trap that's holding him back. Or, while the party is having the fight and trying to stop the bad guys, he is the one that's on the other side able to find whatever it is the group is looking for -- and the groups success or failure rides on him.

He's optimized for combat, right? Oh boy - nothing will make a combat optimized character cry harder than having success or failure in the solo skill challenge ride solely on them.

Having said that, you never said whether this Paladin was the primary defender, a secondary defender, or somebody who considers themselves a striker first and foremost. That does make a difference in how you kill him.

And also, if the player is an optimizer, chances are he'll just create something new and more vicious - and in 4e there are worse things than an optimized Paladin.

[Reis Tahlen]

Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

Don't.

You'll be punishing the rest of the group just because they're not as powerful as the Paladin. Well, that's what they'll think when the only one alive is the ubber-Paladin behind the Wall of Force, that's it.

The basis of... everything... when you attack someone, is to attack his weak spots. Don't forget you play a ROLEPLAYING game; throwing monsters at your players is not the only tool at your disposal. You are playing D&D, not Diablo.

Traps, intrigue, threats, powerful political conspiracies, difficult choices between two lesser evils... Heck, the Paladin is perhaps the EASIEST character to obliterate with a Palpatiny-type of manipulation.

Oh, and above all, your job as a DM is to make sure he never learns you (tried to) destroy him because he was powerful; nothing frustrates more player than knowing that once you have a certain amount of power, DM will kill you.

[Bayar]

The lawful-good dragon god guy, you know.

Bahamut the Platinum Dragon ?

Anyway, just send some flying enemies with some ranged weapons. That should work.

[dsmiles]

Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

[Bayar]

Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

That is unnecesarily cruel and bad DMing. Falling should not occur just because the paladin gave 1 GP to a beggar that was actually CE or something trivial like that. Falling should occur after repeated offences to the paladin's code of conduct.

Edit @V: Not being familiar to 4e rules or fluff, but that sounds preety awesome. Seems that paladins in 4e are like some kind of Jedi

[tcrudisi]

Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

And do what? Make him lose all his class features and powers? No, there's no way to do that in 4e. Here's the relevant information about Paladins from the PHB:

Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

Stripping him of his Paladinhood is strictly not an option. Please do not go this route.

[dsmiles]

And do what? Make him lose all his class features and powers? No, there's no way to do that in 4e. Here's the relevant information about Paladins from the PHB:

Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

Stripping him of his Paladinhood is strictly not an option. Please do not go this route.

Sorry, my paladins' fluff is the same as it always has been. Your god/goddess giveth, and he/she can taketh away. Sometimes I (try very hard to) forget that WoTC bought TSR. If you use 'generic DnD' fluff, ignore my suggestion.