Sorcerer Races?

[zephiros]

So far I've been seeing Kobold recommended up and down as ideal for the Dragonwrought ability and Greater Draconic Rites.

My DM also offered to retract Whisper Gnome's penalty to Charisma to make it a more Sorc-friendly race. I realize it's still not entirely ideal, but the Kobold hit to Con is a significant one, though it can be overlooked. Any further explanations, or alternate suggestions are certainly welcome. I *prefer* to maintain normal base land speed, hence mentioning two of the small races that maintain theirs.

[Kylarra]

If you're taking Kobold, it's generally recommended to be a Desert Kobold.

[AngelisBlack]

There are actually several good options for a sorcerer. Most of them involve having draconic character options available by having the Dragonblood Subtype. The Spellscale, while a challenge to adequately roleplay, does have a lot of sorcerer friendly abilities. The races from Dragon Magic have the dragonblood subtype as well.

If you don't mind a level adjustment, applying the Draconic templete offers a much needed constitution boost as well as charisma and the dragonblood subtype. If you aren't so keen on using something so dragon heavy, you could use an Assimar or a Catfolk, both have a LA but should be survivable at higher levels.

[BladeofOblivion]

I double Desert Kobold.

I also recommend asking your DM if he will allow Loredrake. Only available to dragons, lower HD size to d10s to raise your CL by TWO.

[zephiros]

So take Loredrake as something that's not a full dragon? I'm guessing the prerequisite is just dragonblood then?

And it should be noted that we tend to ignore LA of +1 or +2. Either that or work around the abilities and cut a few out, then ignore it. We basically won't use LA one way or the other. :/

Desert Kobold is good, any hit to Will Save is made up by class, and it doesn't diminish the health.

I've also seen some people tell me to take the Draconic, Fiendish, or Fey Heritage Feats to augment my character, in addition to my other feats which will likely be mostly metamagic.

Currently I may be looking at either a pure sorcerer with a one level sand shaper dip for Sorcerer 14/Sand Shaper 1 or Sorcerer 9/Sandshaper 1/Incarnatrix 5.

I believe Sand Shaper compensates for your lost sorcerer level, though I can't claim to know whether Loredrake gives any adverse effect to your normal spell progression (although I know Kobolds can get +1 Sorcerer level through GDR).

I have seen this guide: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...cery_Work?pg=1
Which seems to take a lot into consideration. Probably wouldn't be allowed the White Dragonspawn (haven't looked at it) and not sure I'd want to make something that complex but it seems like using some aspects could be decent.



EDIT: Also, if you could tell me where I might find the Loredrake, that would be appreciated.

[RufusCorvus]

So take Loredrake as something that's not a full dragon? I'm guessing the prerequisite is just dragonblood then?

EDIT: Also, if you could tell me where I might find the Loredrake, that would be appreciated.

Dragonwrought Kobolds count as True Dragons.

Loredrake is in Dragons of Eberron, p. 31.

[BladeofOblivion]

I can't remember what Loredrake is from, but its prerequisite is "Must be a true dragon." However, it can be argued that Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons because they gain in mental stats as they age without their physical stats going down. That's the Draconomicon's definition of True Dragons, but it IS a little cheesy. That's why I said to ask your DM. If you can get it, by him, You gain two free caster levels. If not, you are still dealing with the most awesome sorcerer race ever. It really doesn't hurt one bit that they get a free 3rd level slot due to not needing the Fly spell.

EDIT: Darn ninjaing.

[zephiros]

Thanks, and actually, now that I look at it, something more along the lines of Sorcerer 4/Sandshaper 1/Incarnatrix 10 makes more sense I think, as a build.

Anyone have any yea/nay to the Heritage Feats, or should I be spending feats on Metamagic everywhere I can?

EDIT: The Loredrake description is also a bit....confusing. I understand what it can do, but is it a feat, a class, a template? Something else? I just need to know what I expend on it (feat, level, nothing?)

[BladeofOblivion]

You should probably go for metamagic. It's a false economy on it's own, but Incantatrix makes it awesome. By the way, take the Rapid Metamagic ACF. The familiar is pretty weak anyway and Quicken Spell is awesome.

[Zaq]

Heritage feats are mostly a raw deal... but the thing is, you're a sorcerer. You could take Toughness for every single feat and still be a valuable and contributing member of the party, assuming that everyone else isn't all playing T1 classes. If you really like the heritage feats, just make sure that you choose your spells well, and you'll still be perfectly fine.

That said, of course feats like metamagic and suchlike are "better" choices... but sorcerers, like most 9th level casters, have enough of a margin of awesome that they can afford to make a few mechanically lackluster choices without fundamentally lessening their ability to contribute.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm not terribly familiar with heritage feats, but I don't remember them as too spectacular when I read them over. More metamagic is good, and you may think about what role you want to play as a spellcaster: if you're going to be blasting, pull feats from the Mailman, if you'll be Polymorphing, then feats that benefit that (Improved Natural Attack, Flyby Attack, that sort of thing.

As far as races go, you can't really beat a Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with Slight Build and the variant that gives you a Claw, Claw, Bite attack routine, but I also like Humans for the bonus feat, or Illumians for the Pseudo-DMM ability or the Dex for bonus spells ability (more the first than the second, mind you).

And rather than dropping your familiar for the metamagic specialist ACF, take Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage, Pg 60) as soon as is feasible (as soon as you have 12 ranks in Spellcraft and have a feat open). It's strictly better than the ACF and allows you to trade your familiar for something else (if you can find something else to trade it for) or take a Raven familiar who can then fly around within a mile of you and provide up-to-the-moment reconnaissance information and UMD based casting ability (Ravens have the ability to manipulate wands and scrolls and such, and speak a language) for a little back up when things go Tango-Uniform.

Finally, think about maybe adding Shadowcraft Mage to the mix, if your DM will allow you to take it without being a Gnome (as it recommends) as it adds a lot of flexibility (by giving you all Sor/Wiz Evocations and I think Conjurations as well, and if you cheese it a tiny bit, Shadow Miracles).

[zephiros]

Yeah, I meant to say the Rapid Metamagic Feat. If anyone knows of a significant ACF that involves familiar trading I really wouldn't use the familiar anyway, so please by all means let me know.

And this Shadowcraft Mage adds all Evocations and Conjurations known? Impressive...where can I find it?

[zephiros]

Apologies for Double Post, still not sure about what Loredrake counts as (feat, class, special feature, etc.)

Basically I need to know where to record it.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yeah, I meant to say the Rapid Metamagic Feat. If anyone knows of a significant ACF that involves familiar trading I really wouldn't use the familiar anyway, so please by all means let me know.

And this Shadowcraft Mage adds all Evocations and Conjurations known? Impressive...where can I find it?

It's in Races of Stone, but it doesn't add them to your spells known, it lets you pseudo-cast them by casting an illusion spell, typically a Hightened Silent Image. It's kinda like Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, only so much, much more. The Killer Gnome is a Shadowcraft Mage.

[zephiros]

Ah, thanks. Sounds intriguing certainly.

No-one able to tell me what a Loredrake is still? :P

[BladeofOblivion]

I think it's an acquired template, but I would have to check to be sure.

[Elfin]

but the thing is, you're a sorcerer. You could take Toughness for every single feat and still be a valuable and contributing member of the party.

This. You're going to rock no matter what, so really, just stay away from Charisma penalties and it doesn't make that much of a difference - feel free to choose the race you want.

Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Desert Kobolds are pretty tasty, though. And humans may get a bit tiresome, but it's hard to beat that bonus feat and all those extra skill points.

[FMArthur]

There's also Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar for a tasty +4 Charisma adjustment. But considering both Magic-Blooded and Lesser Aasimar are regarded as being kind of cheesy, combining the two may be not be a great idea (I think Magic-Blooded was designed around it replacing rather than adding to racial features - like Dragonborn do - even though it says otherwise). Just Lesser Aasimar is a great race on its own, if less awesome for sorcerors than Spellscales or Kobolds.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

There's also Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar for a tasty +4 Charisma adjustment. But considering both Magic-Blooded and Lesser Aasimar are regarded as being kind of cheesy, combining the two may be not be a great idea (I think Magic-Blooded was designed around it replacing rather than adding to racial features - like Dragonborn do - even though it says otherwise). Just Lesser Aasimar is a great race on its own, if less awesome for sorcerors than Spellscales or Kobolds.

Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar is still less cheesy than Venerable Desert Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake.

[Jack Zander]

Hmm... how do templates with LA affect weak creatures like kobolds and goblins which are considered weaker than the standard races? Could you play a fiendish kobold for +0 LA?

[Leon]

Any race works - Be brave and play one with a Cha Penalty.

Halflings are good choices as being a small spell caster doesnt get the suck that being a small melee combat has.

Hmm... how do templates with LA affect weak creatures like kobolds and goblins which are considered weaker than the standard races? Could you play a fiendish kobold for +0 LA?

No, if your playing one as a PC it applies to your level as per normal - So a lvl 1 Class of X 1LA Race would be ECL 2 etc.

They are only "weak" inso far as challenge ratings are concerned.

[Fax Celestis]

Man, the dragonwrought loredrake kobold bull is so overdone. Have some style: play an azurin with Sherem-Lar Sorcery, Sherezem-Lar Sorcery, and Midnight Metamagic. Or drop Midnight Metamagic and azurin for silverbrow human and Draconic Aura. Or maybe a d'hin'ni or celadrin gish build. Changeling into cabinet trickster, even.

But the cheesebold? Come onnnnn. Everybody does that.

[Greenish]

But the cheesebold? Come onnnnn. Everybody does that.

Kobold, man, kobold. Instant awesome, just add dragon.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Man, the dragonwrought loredrake kobold bull is so overdone. Have some style: play an azurin with Sherem-Lar Sorcery, Sherezem-Lar Sorcery, and Midnight Metamagic. Or drop Midnight Metamagic and azurin for silverbrow human and Draconic Aura. Or maybe a d'hin'ni or celadrin gish build. Changeling into cabinet trickster, even.

But the cheesebold? Come onnnnn. Everybody does that.

What are the sources on these alternatives? And are they alternatives to those without the palate for gouda, without the taste for gouda, or for the lactose intolerant?

[Fax Celestis]

Sherem-Lar/Sherezem-Lar Sorcery are in Ghostwalk. Azurin and Midnight Metamagic are in Magic of Incarnum. Silverbrow Human and Draconic Aura are in Dragon Magic. D'hin'ni and celadrin are in Dragon #351. Changeling is in ECS, and Cabinet Trickster is in Races of Eberron.

They are fairly non-cheesy, as far as broken-nicity goes. What they are, however, is interesting and still largely effective. D'hin'ni and celadrin are at the looooow end of that scale, though, as they're level-adjusted outsider races (which people generally use for martial weapon proficiency for gish builds, which is why I specifically called them out for a gish-like).

If it were me, I would go silverbrow human with Sherem/Sherezem-Lar Sorcery and Draconic Aura/Double Aura. But I like playing buffer/debuffers.

[zephiros]

While it may be something that everyone does, it's not something that I've done. In fact I don't think anyone in the same campaign as me has ever played a sorcerer or a kobold. That being said, I'll take a look at your recommendations for sure, I just don't think it would be entirely efficient for me to make a character with various aspects that I've never heard of before (ie everything you mentioned :P) when I'm working with limited time and have already been doing a fair amount of research on this so far.

[BeholderSlayer]

1. Play a Sharn.
2. Wear football helmet to session.
3. ?????
4. Profit!

just kidding

[zephiros]

Question: If I become a Loredrake, as a Kobold, do my HD improve to d10? I realize it's doubtful, but worth asking nonetheless. :P

[BeholderSlayer]

Question: If I become a Loredrake, as a Kobold, do my HD improve to d10? I realize it's doubtful, but worth asking nonetheless. :P

No, your HD progress as your class levels. It's a major argument for why kobolds can't take loredrake.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

No, your HD progress as your class levels. It's a major argument for why kobolds can't take loredrake.

I don't see why - if I were a steel dragon loredrake and took levels of sorcerer instead of dragon it wouldn't increase those hit dice, and wouldn't make me any less of a dragon.