Build: The "Can't Touch Me" Kid

[Talbot]

Trying to come up with a mage-slayer, ended up with a character that's just generally a pain in the butt to kill, although he requires either good stat rolls or stat boosting items to totally work:

Monk 1/Battle Dancer 1/Enforcer 2/Survivor 2/Swordsage 2/ Monk +1/Occult Slayer 5/Warblade 1/Witchslayer 4/Witchslayer +1

ACFs: Spell Reflection (Monk 2), Unarmored AC (Unearthed Arcana)

Feats:
Kung Fu Genius (1), Improved Initiative (H1), Improved Unarmed Strike (M1), Improved Grapple (M1), Knowledge Devotion (3), Mage Slayer (6), Weapon Focus (S1), Combat Reflexes (M2), Adaptive Style (9) Blindfight (12), Pierce Magical Concealment (15), Pierce Magical Protection (18)

Skills:
Max Knowledge: Local
Max Knowledge: Arcana
Max Knowledge: Religion
Max: Concentration
Use whatever’s left on Hide/Move Silent/Sense Motive/Spot Listen as you see fit

Gets you:
Cha, Wis, and Int to AC (including touch)
Cha to saves
Mind Blank
Mettle
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Spell Reflection
Bonuses against casters
Disjunction every 5 rounds
Mind Over Magic (Spell Turning)
Nondetection
Slippery Mind
10 Maneuvers Known, 7 Maneuvers Readied (with high enough IL for the Concentration to Saves ones, which you can prep twice each)
Ref: 13 + Cha + Dex
Will: 17 + Cha + Wis
Fort: 15 + Cha + Con
BAB: 16//11/6/1

Assuming straight 14s on Cha/Wis/Dex/Int by level 20, his touch AC (with a belt of Magnificence +6) is 42... much higher if Tomes or Deflection/Dodge boosting equipment is factored in. If you don't mind hurting his already minimal offense, make him venerable for an extra +3 to all his bottom stats (-6 Dex, though, so you probably only want to do that if lots of odd numbers are involved). His saves are all crazy high (with the aforementioned 14s his weakest save is +17 with no extra gear... +23 with the belt of magnificence... +28 with a Cloak of Resistance on top of it). And he can use his 1st level Swordsage stance to throw some Concealment on top of that.

If you don't roll that well, you could drop the Swordsage or Battle Dancer or even Monk levels for some more offensive firepower (and less MAD)...

I'm still looking for advice, though... I'd like to find a way to cram Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion in there (two more levels of Survivor would do it), and I'd love some fast healing or regeneration, but I can't figure out what to cut...

[Tetrasodium]

Trying to come up with a mage-slayer, ended up with a character that's just generally a pain in the butt to kill, although he requires either good stat rolls or stat boosting items to totally work:

Monk 1 (1)/Battle Dancer 1 (2)/Enforcer 2 (4)/Survivor 2 (6)/Swordsage 2 (8)/ Monk +1 (9)/Occult Slayer 5 (14)/Warblade 1 (15)/Witchslayer 4 (19)/Swordsage 2 (21)/Witchslayer +1 (22)

Feats:
Kung Fu Genius (1), Improved Initiative (H1), Improved Unarmed Strike (M1), Improved Grapple (M1), Knowledge Devotion (3), Mage Slayer (6), Weapon Focus (S1), Combat Reflexes (M2), Adaptive Style (9) Blindfight (12), Pierce Magical Concealment (15), Pierce Magical Protection (18) ????? (21)

I'm still looking for advice, though... I'd like to find a way to cram Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion in there (two more levels of Survivor would do it), and I'd love some fast healing or regeneration, but I can't figure out what to cut...

you've gone epic, get the con over 25 and take epic fast healing. Grab the feat that lets you use your con bonus for will saves instead of your will bonus.

edit: just happened to be reading with insomnia after waking up in the middle of the night, might not be an especially useful option for you... but i9t could be an option.

[Math_Mage]

Yeah, as Tetrasodium said, you're a little over the level cap. I notice you have Swordsage 2 in twice without a +2 on the second one; that might explain it.

What I want to know is, what do you do with this build besides survive? It's the classic Monk problem all over again.

[FelixG]

Yeah, as Tetrasodium said, you're a little over the level cap. I notice you have Swordsage 2 in twice without a +2 on the second one; that might explain it.

What I want to know is, what do you do with this build besides survive? It's the classic Monk problem all over again.

Most likely walk around poking fledgling wizards in the head to annoy them while they are trying to prepare spells for the day

[mikethepoor]

Also, how are you gaining the second monk level after leaving the class?

[kestrel404]

If you want a serious untouchable build, and are willing to use Dragon Magazine (Kung-fu genius is a Dragon Mag feat), then here's your build:

Race: Voidmind Fire Gnome - if that doesn't fly, then Half-green dragon Fire Gnome (More LA, but it's still low enough to get all the important stuff).
Classes: Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Bone Knight 10/Contemplative x (the rest)
Feats at first level: Toughness, Troll-blooded

The rest of the build is wide open. I gave him undead leadership and ran him as the major baddy in a one-shot.

What you get - Regeneration 1, except for Acid and Fire damage. Which means that all damage which is not acid or fire is non-lethal. You are racially immune to Fire and Acid damage. Level 4 bone knight renders you immune to non-lethal damage. Bone knight 8 renders you immune to just about everything else. Voidmind renders you immune to mind-affecting.

And this way, you've got at least cleric 14 (and with voidmind, cleric 16) casting. With LA buyoff and voidmind, you can get cleric 18 casting, which means 9th level spells.

Hope that helps.

[true_shinken]

10 Maneuvers Known, 7 Maneuvers Readied (with high enough IL for the Concentration to Saves ones, which you can prep twice each)

ToB does not work like that.

[Tehnar]

Doesn't Voidmind make you a thrall to mindflayers? Isin't that where they literally scoop out your brain and replace it with tentacles?


Anyway, I think a better way to go is with shield ward and divine shield feats. If you go something like paladin of tyranny -> blackguard with those two feats you can get CHA to saves twice and your CHA applies to your shield bonus,and your shield bonus applies to your touch AC.

It might not get you as a high touch AC, but it will get you much better saves. You can pick evasion up with the ring, and mettle with a two level dip in witchslayer.

[Private-Prinny]

ToB does not work like that.

Not even if he learned those maneuvers again and readied them separately off of his Warblade list?

[Nick_mi]

tagged for later reading

[Talbot]

Yeah, as Tetrasodium said, you're a little over the level cap. I notice you have Swordsage 2 in twice without a +2 on the second one; that might explain it.

What I want to know is, what do you do with this build besides survive? It's the classic Monk problem all over again.

Yeah, there's only supposed to be two Swordsage levels.

Besides surviving, it ought to be able to do at least some damage to casters with Knowledge Devotion/Smite/Maneuvers/Occult Slayer bonuses/Withslayer bonuses. It's basically supposed to be the closest a mostly non-magic non-psionic melee character can get to a mage-killer. I would like help upping his damage output without compromising his survivability, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, there's only supposed to be two Swordsage levels.

Besides surviving, it ought to be able to do at least some damage to casters with Knowledge Devotion/Smite/Maneuvers/Occult Slayer bonuses/Withslayer bonuses. It's basically supposed to be the closest a mostly non-magic non-psionic melee character can get to a mage-killer. I would like help upping his damage output without compromising his survivability, though.

He still has to contend with mages being unable to be reached, via Overland Flight, Contingency Celerity on being the target of an attack, and Contingency DimDoor upon an opponent getting within 10' of me.

[Esser-Z]

Not even if he learned those maneuvers again and readied them separately off of his Warblade list?

That does work.

[Talbot]

He still has to contend with mages being unable to be reached, via Overland Flight, Contingency Celerity on being the target of an attack, and Contingency DimDoor upon an opponent getting within 10' of me.

Eh, if he's got decent Cha, Momentary Disjunction can help with a lot of that, and Cloak of Nondetection might help him get the drop on casters from time to time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, if he's got decent Cha, Momentary Disjunction can help with a lot of that, and Cloak of Nondetection might help him get the drop on casters from time to time.

He doesn't have the caster level to cast Momentary Disjunction, since his CL is, yanno, negative, due to all the Mage Slayer feats

[Talbot]

He doesn't have the caster level to cast Momentary Disjunction, since his CL is, yanno, negative, due to all the Mage Slayer feats

He gets it as a Class Feature from Witchslayer. No Caster level required.

[true_shinken]

That does work.

No it doesn't. Why would you be able to learn something you already know? It makes no sense. Nowhere does the book says you can learn the same maneuver twice. 'The rules don't say I can't' is not exactly a strong point.

[dextercorvia]

No it doesn't. Why would you be able to learn something you already know? It makes no sense. Nowhere does the book says you can learn the same maneuver twice. 'The rules don't say I can't' is not exactly a strong point.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that the rules spell out somewhere that a multiclass wizard/sorcerer can learn the same spell for each class to enable them to cast it from both slots. This is essentially the same thing.

[Esser-Z]

No it doesn't. Why would you be able to learn something you already know? It makes no sense. Nowhere does the book says you can learn the same maneuver twice. 'The rules don't say I can't' is not exactly a strong point.

What? Are you next going to say a Sorcerer/Wizard can't have the same spell in his spellbook and sorcerer list? There is absolutely no precedent for one class looking at what another has in its list to decide what you can pick.

[Hirax]

I've since lost the build, but my untouchable build went in the psionic direction. It required you to be a goliath (ignoring other templates for a sec), then using the rogue racial substitution levels to get mettle of the mountains (evasion for fort saves basically), then later going into the iron mind PrC and getting mettle of will (will save evasion), then a couple monk levels for evasion. Then there are feats that make your armor and shield count for your touch AC. Get imp. uncanny dodge from somewhere, become a half-clay golem, and you've done a pretty good job of closing off everything except incorporeal touch attacks and autohit spells that don't allow SR.

[true_shinken]

Actually, I'm fairly sure that the rules spell out somewhere that a multiclass wizard/sorcerer can learn the same spell for each class to enable them to cast it from both slots. This is essentially the same thing.

Wizards can already prepare copies of the same spell. Sorcerers whole schtik is spamming spells.
Martial adepts don't get to do that. It's part of ToB's design intent - to do different things every round. Don't compare casting to initiating this way; it's not supposed to work similarly.

What? Are you next going to say a Sorcerer/Wizard can't have the same spell in his spellbook and sorcerer list? There is absolutely no precedent for one class looking at what another has in its list to decide what you can pick.

This has even gone through the Sage, really. Check here.

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

[Esser-Z]

That Sage quote doesn't answer it... but this one does:

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

So huh.

[Talbot]

Ok, so he can only prepare the concentration saves maneuvers once each. Not the end of the world; he basically only fails saves on natty ones anyways. Any ideas for how to more effectively prep for natty ones, and/or squeeze some Improved Uncanny Dodge/Evasion into the build, and/or up its damage output slightly?

[Esser-Z]

Do note that if he prepares them on the Warblade side, he can recover them (and all of that side's other maneuvers) as a swift action coupled with an attack.

[Math_Mage]

Improved Evasion seems like a win-more effect on this build, as does 'prep for natty ones'. 2 levels in Barbarian would get you Improved Uncanny Dodge, since it stacks with your other UD source.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, so he can only prepare the concentration saves maneuvers once each. Not the end of the world; he basically only fails saves on natty ones anyways. Any ideas for how to more effectively prep for natty ones, and/or squeeze some Improved Uncanny Dodge/Evasion into the build, and/or up its damage output slightly?

Luck feats. Treat a natural 1 as a natural 20 sound good to you?

[Talbot]

Improved Evasion seems like a win-more effect on this build, as does 'prep for natty ones'. 2 levels in Barbarian would get you Improved Uncanny Dodge, since it stacks with your other UD source.

I'm amenable to that- especially since it lets me pick up Pounce + Rage for more offense- but what should I cut for it? I could probably live without the Warblade level, but where else do I trim?

[Math_Mage]

I'm amenable to that- especially since it lets me pick up Pounce + Rage for more offense- but what should I cut for it? I could probably live without the Warblade level, but where else do I trim?

tbh, I don't know enough of your build to suggest cuts. Battle Dancer, Survivor, Witch Slayer, Enforcer...heck, even ToB's Greek to me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm amenable to that- especially since it lets me pick up Pounce + Rage for more offense- but what should I cut for it? I could probably live without the Warblade level, but where else do I trim?

Warblade gets you access to Pounce, via Pouncing Strike, if it's sufficiently delayed.

[Talbot]

tbh, I don't know enough of your build to suggest cuts. Battle Dancer, Survivor, Witch Slayer, Enforcer...heck, even ToB's Greek to me.

Basically, here's what the build gets from each of those:

Battle Dancer: Cha to AC, +2 to Reflex, +1BAB
Survivor: +3 to all saves, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, -0 BAB
Witch Slayer: +4 Will and Fort, +1 Ref, Slippery Mind, Mettle, +5 BAB, Momentary Dijunction (DC 20 + Cha) as a Swift action every 5 rounds.
Enforcer: Lawful Neutral Paladin variant. Basically the same as a Paladin, smites Chaos instead of Evil IIRC
Swordsage: Free Weapon Focus and +1 to Init, +1 BAB, +3 Ref and Will, but the big benefits are Wis to AC and use of maneuvers (which are awesome).
Warblade:
Kung Fu Genius Monk: +3 to all saves, +1 BAB, Spell Reflection (ACF for Evasion), Int to AC.
Occult Slayer: +5 BAB, Mind Blank, various abilities involving hiding from/doing more damage to/identifying Casters.