Continuous True Strike for 2000gp!

[ffone]

...kidding.

I frequently must try to explain to other players why according to (my understand) of the rules - and sane balance in any case - the creating magic items formula for use-activated/continuous (without limited charges/day) can't be applied in a lot of the ways to a lot of the spells people think they can.

I'd like advice on how to explain this to players in a way that will get them to 1. accept it 2. not blame me or take it personally, but recognize it's the rules (and necessary for sane balance.)

My usual argument goes something like this:

"That table for pricing guidelines has a footnote for that line specifically, which people often miss or choose to ignore. That footnote gives price multipliers based on spell duration, which shorter-duration spells having higher multipliers. We can implicitly infer that ONLY spells with duration can be made into continuous items (the core items may have a few exceptions, but those shouldn't necessarily be 'generalized'). Think if 'instantaneous' spells as having a duration multiplier of infinity."

"So no endless Cure Light Wounds for 2,000 gp. And no Continuous True Strike for 2,000 gp, because while it does sort of have a duration ('See Text'), it also has the 1 attack limit. And even if there were such an item, it would take a standard action to 'cast' each time (with the attack being another standard action), NOT use-activated every time you swing the sword."

"Also, when the spell grants a numerical bonus to something, the bonus-squared formulae supersede the 2000 x caster level x spell level formula. For example, continuous bull's strength would be 12,000 gp, but we can see it's meant to be 16,000. Note that the core wondrous item granting it even use's bull's strength as the crafting spell, so it's not like the designers didn't realize this."

(The formula players are always pointing to is at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems...magicitems.htm)

I would appreciate

- Any correction/counter-advice to my understanding/opinion
- Any advice on how to phrase it nicely to somewhat munchkiny players. I'm going off SRD and don't have DMG/PHB at the moment - is there some line that's more emphatic about this than the footnote.
- Thoughts/guidelines on when it is appropriate to make continuous-spell items. (I'd sort of like to give the group a continuous Detect Magic item to streamline looting, possibly requiring concentration when used, like the spell.) For example, Enlarge Person 'just' has a duration, and would be 4,000, but that seems a bit too cheap/nobrainer.

[Gavinfoxx]

They actually put in a book (or was it a Sage article?) how the designers would make and price a ring of continuous true strike.

[Hirax]

Simple test for your players: if the spell has a duration of instantaneous, it can't be used to make a continuously active magic item.

[ericgrau]

Ya, you got it right.

Detect magic and enlarge person are unusual spells that don't fit well on unlimited items as they are easily abused on them. I'd just give them a wand of detect magic for 375 gp. 50 charges is almost unlimited for every common application, except it won't always be active. That's the source of abuse as it can allow scouting, avoiding surprises, etc. Likewise give them a wand of enlarge person for 750 gp. In that case it's a matter of action economy; not spending a round making yourself large is a big power boost. Both wands are dirt cheap too.

But there are ways to get permanent versions of each using the permanency spell. I'd be tempted to make it 6,000 gp for each given the permanency xp costs relative to darkvision / goggles of the night, but enlarge person should really be dispellable and detect magic should really be on a caster only item (permanency also limits it to the caster). So "no" is a better price IMO. It's a shame people are so terrified of xp costs as a permanent enlarge person could be a good deal. And if xp costs ever do make you fall back a level, you gain xp faster until you soon catch up so the drawback is only temporary. So even if the permanency gets dispelled it's not the end of the world.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table, if they want a custom magic item they get to tell the DM what they want it to do, and the DM assigns it a price based on its effects. That table contains zero rules, only guidelines for estimations. You have every right to overestimate a price, for example your continuous Bull's Strength item could be priced at 28,000 gp, since it contains both a spell effect worth 12,000 gp and an enhancement bonus worth 16,000 gp. If a player tries to assign a price to his own custom magic item based on that table, a DM has every right to tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, especially if it's grossly underpriced given its effect.

[Greenish]

"So no endless Cure Light Wounds for 2,000 gp.

While I agree with your larger point, I don't feel endless out of combat healing is abusive. For 1,500 gp, they'd get two wands of CLW (or even better, Lesser Vigor) for 100 castings, or two healing belts, each usable thrice each day.

CLW at CL 1 isn't really worth it in combat, but afterwards it's handy for topping everyone up.

[Edit]: MIC specifically mentions that it contains no custom item creation rules, because their effects vary so much and it's up to the DM to eyeball the price.

[FelixG]

First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table,

This is a good response if your a GM who doesn't trust your players farther than you can throw them.

I have sat down lots of time with one of my favorite GMs and talked over item pricing with both of us referencing the table and coming up with fun ideas.

But one key thing to talk about with your players (and it is key to talk with your players not just "tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine) about power vs fun. You just have to ask them if they would find it fun if no encounter in the game offered no challenge whats so ever. Most reasonable players will figure out things that are in fitting with the theme of the campaign and wont try to cheese things up too much. If they insist let them have it, let them just breeze through the encounters, give them less experience as the CR is substantially lower.

Now, if they still don't realize what a mood killer it is, you use mundane methods to best them, have a boss kinda person show up with that item too (what villain wouldn't copy an item that gives such easy killing power?!) then he has a mundane suit of armor with +70 AC. You may call BS on this but, its well within the rules as long as you can make the craft check
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm
check for armor smithing: 10+AC bonus.

Then you can explain to them the fact that "just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD do something." ect

:D

[Fizban]

First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table, if they want a custom magic item they get to tell the DM what they want it to do, and the DM assigns it a price based on its effects. That table contains zero rules, only guidelines for estimations. You have every right to overestimate a price, for example your continuous Bull's Strength item could be priced at 28,000 gp, since it contains both a spell effect worth 12,000 gp and an enhancement bonus worth 16,000 gp. If a player tries to assign a price to his own custom magic item based on that table, a DM has every right to tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, especially if it's grossly underpriced given its effect.

I disagree only because I don't see any problem with a player writing up a magic item they want before submitting it to the DM. The DM already has enough to do, so players should be able to handle their own characters, and if they want a custom item, prestige class, or other bit of game stuff, then the least they can do is provide some kind of writeup for the DM to look over. At which point the DM may then tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, or they can work something out.

Edit: haha, swordsage'd by FelixG.

[Snake-Aes]

I disagree only because I don't see any problem with a player writing up a magic item they want before submitting it to the DM. The DM already has enough to do, so players should be able to handle their own characters, and if they want a custom item, prestige class, or other bit of game stuff, then the least they can do is provide some kind of writeup for the DM to look over. At which point the DM may then tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, or they can work something out.

Edit: haha, swordsage'd by FelixG.

The problem is not the players talking to the dm about making the item. The problem is making the item then bitching because the DM didn't allow it. It's very convenient to forget that the DM does have the final say on everything. And if the players abandon the dm because he didn't allow them to make a "permanent true strike" for 2k gold... Well, these players won't last anywhere.

[Boren]

Ah yes the sword of true strike 4k gold (+1 and true strike). This little trick has been banned from my group mostly by gentleman's agreement that it throws things too far out of whack. However while some things get way off when you look at that chart others can be fine. I once made a sword that did shocking grasp on hit again only 2k for the spell and 2k for the +1. Now I can already hear some of you screaming about that should have cost you X its the same as the shock ability plus you'd get a +3 to hit...on and on and on...well...
1. It was use activated on hit meaning I never got the +3 I had to hit the thing firsts and at that point well a little late.
2. yes it did more damage than shock (was done in 3.0) BUT it was subject to SR where the shock weapon ability is not and given that it's CL 1 not much chance it's going to be getting through too much SR.
Anyway point of all this is that yes there is much room for abuse in the low level spells however its not all bad and some things do balance themselves out like my above example, good for low levels but becomes obsolete as the players climb the in power. A few suggestions along these lines that no you can't do X but I'd be fine if you perhaps wanted to do Y might help smooth out the lumps from your (justified ) NO hammer.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, so long as they have to activate it, an unlimited item of true strike wouldn't be at all bad. Action use is a massive balancing factor.

I almost never just say no, as a DM. I explain what the flaw is, then suggest alternative options to get them the bonus they're looking for in a somewhat balanced fashion.

[BeholderSlayer]

Personally I wouldn't allow a permanent true strike item with no action (is that was this thread is about? i hope so lol). I don't think I would let PC's make a permanent item of any instantaneous effect with no action use, actually...I can't think of one offhand that I would.

The item creation rules are guidelines, but pretty decent guidelines overall. They give you a nice estimate, and you can go from there. You have to look at similiarly priced items, and make a judgement call.

[Snake-Aes]

You could always make the prank. It's a single true strike with continuous effect, which means once you hit, it's over forever, while the magic aura of the true strike spell remains...

[Bayar]

You could always make the prank. It's a single true strike with continuous effect, which means once you hit, it's over forever, while the magic aura of the true strike spell remains...

That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

[Snake-Aes]

That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

And players trying to weasel +20 insight to all attack rolls forever aren't?

[WarKitty]

Well, we have a couple rules. The player always talks to the DM before crafting an item. The DM says before crafting begins what is and is not allowed. If the DM afterwards realizes that the item is overpowered, the player may retcon the crafting (and craft something else/pay the new higher price if allowed).

But yes. I would say instantaneous spells may be placed only in charged items (either straight charges or charges/day).

[JBento]

That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

No, it really is not - it's actually following the rules. If it's continuous, the item has a +20 bonus on the NEXT attack roll. After that, it retains the enchantment, but it does exactly squat (besides pinging Detect Magic) and, of course, it can't be reapplied. If it's use activated, then "meh" spending one standard action to get +20 on your next attack roll isn't THAT big a deal.

I don't see much trouble with an unlimited use, action-activated CLW either: it's not like you can get about as much utility out of 1-2 feats...

[Soranar]

actually the rules clearly state that true strike can never be a permanent bonus

true strike is instantaneous , as such whatever magic item you make would have charges /day of the spell, not all day long

following your logic you could also make a sword of fireball that blasts permanently

same reason you can't extend or persist it :

from SRD : An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

[Skorj]

Obviously, instantaneous effects can't be made continuous. The cheese is in making it use-activated.

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword ...

So, if True Strike were activated whenever you swing your sword, it wouldn't need to be continuous to have the same effect. However, the key is that the SRD goes on to say

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all ...

No guidance is given as to when activation is a standard action, and when it's a non-action. So, rule True Strike as a standard action, and there's really no room for players to complain (not that it would stop some).

Keep in mind, however, that True Strike is situationally quite powerful. If you need a 16 to hit, then alternating True Strike with attacking will double your damage output. Being able to reliably make a bow shot at extreme range can break encounters. But since all of that is still true with a wand, enchanting a weapon with (standard action flavored) use-activated true strike isn't that different. It should realistically be a very common magic item given it's usefulness to price ratio, vastly more dangerous to a high AC target than a +1 weapon!

[Bayar]

And players trying to weasel +20 insight to all attack rolls forever aren't?

Try this:

Player: Hey DM, could I get my sword enchanted so it got True strike whenever I attack ? According to the rules, it should cost 2 K gold.

Posible DM responces:
- that sounds kinda overpriced, lets tweak it until it's more realistically priced
- those are not hard rules, those are guidelines for the dm. Let me adjust the enchantment a bit
-sounds kinda overpowered if it does not require activation. But if you spend a standard action to activate it, it would be somewhat reasonable
-NO.
-sure ! (after first attack) Enjoy your magic weapon that just used up it's power forever, loser. At least it has a more powerful magic aura, it will allow those asassins to look for you after you run away from them because you cannot match their 35 AC. Loser !

[mabriss lethe]

you could always have a resetting magic trap of true strike in your boot heel.

[PinkysBrain]

A set of rules to try to make custom magic items priceable without DM intervention :

Custom magic item creation house rules

General

• Activation times for items which reproduce spell effects are the same as the casting time, unless otherwise noted here.
• AC bonus (other) items can not be designed by PCs.
• Save bonus (other) items can not be designed by PCs.
• Items with a cost independent of caster level can have their caster level upgraded by a character with the prerequisite item creation feat working on the item for 1 day.
• When a spell occurs on a the spell list of a "full" spell casting class use that version for pricing purposes.

Skill bonus items

• Prerequisite for an item which provides a skill bonuses is 5 ranks in the skill, and a caster level equal to the bonus.
• Maximum bonus for skills based on physical ability scores is 15, and 10 for skills based on mental ability scores.

Command word activated items

• At default cost an item can be used 5x a day unless charged, in which case it can be used at will. The number of uses can be changed by proportionally changing the price.

Continuous and use activated items which reproduce spell effects

• Can not be put into unslotted items. Continuous effects can only be put on rings, only a single one per ring.
• Only spells with duration dependent on caster level or a duration of a minute or more can be made into use activated or continuous items.
• Only spell effects with "true" duration can be use activated or continuous. If only part of the spell effect can be discharged, disrupted or depleted that part is simply never granted by the item.
• Decisions made about the spell normally decided at casting are decided at item creation, a character with the prerequisite item creation feat can change the decision after creation by working on the item for 1 day.

Use activated items

• Spell needs to have a casting time of 1 standard action or less.
• Duration based cost multipliers don't apply.
• Activation is a swift action, deactivation a free action.
• Activation is split up as the wearer desires.
• Maximum total activation time per day is the normal duration of the spell.
• Deactivates when the effect is dispelled.

Additional cost multipliers

• Spell with personal range 1 1/2x
• Spell with more than 2 potential beneficiaries 1/2x.
• Spell with more than 4 potential beneficiaries 1/3x.

Multiple abilities per item

• Items can have up to 2 separate abilities (the existing properties of a non custom item count as one ability).
• An item can only have a single ability if it is outside it's slot affinity.

[Flickerdart]

Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking.

[Zeful]

Try this:

Player: Hey DM, could I get my sword enchanted so it got True strike whenever I attack ? According to the rules, it should cost 2 K gold.

Posible DM responces:

The real response is: "What rules? There are no rules anywhere for the creation of custom magic items. None at all."

[Forged Fury]

Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking.

Are there a lot of ways to generate miss chance other than concealment? I ask since True Strike ignores miss chance granted due to concealment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking.

That won't be quite as effective as you think:

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

[Flickerdart]

Are there a lot of ways to generate miss chance other than concealment? I ask since True Strike ignores miss chance granted due to concealment.

Blink gives miss chance due to being on another plane at the time. The mystery Flicker also gives you miss chance for not being there. I'm sure there are others.

Also, Mirror Image.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Blink gives miss chance due to being on another plane at the time.

Ethereal creatures are invisible, part of Blink's effect is that you cannot be seen half the time. Invisibility = total concealment (first paragraph). If an attacker can see invisible creatures or ignores the miss chance due to concealment, Blink only gives you a 20% miss chance.

[Flickerdart]

Ethereal creatures are invisible, part of Blink's effect is that you cannot be seen half the time. Invisibility = total concealment (first paragraph). If an attacker can see invisible creatures or ignores the miss chance due to concealment, Blink only gives you a 20% miss chance.

20% from Blink, 50% from Flicker, Mirror Image...that's a pitiful chance to hit the real deal already.

[gdiddy]

A Story about an free action activated True Strike ring:

DM:

Do you put on the ring?

Player:

Does it look expensive?

DM:

Yes. It's silver with an miniature onyx skull of an elf.

Player:

Do I feel anything?

DM:

It's powerful. It's making your sword hand tickle.

Player:

Should I write down the mechanical bonus on my sheet?

DM:

It's ring of continuous True Strike.

Player:

Nice!

...NOT MUCH LATER...

Player:

I call on the ring's power again and charge the guard.

DM:

You take him down in one shot. Make a will save.

Player:

GET THIS THING OFF ME! *cuts half of his hand off*