Class for this idea? Or have I finally found something impossible to stat?

[WarKitty]

I've always had a sort of character in mind. Small size (gnome maybe), maybe not the strongest, but focuses on well-targeted strikes for special attacks such as disarm and trip. Primarily a dex-based build rather than a strength based.

Any suggestions on how to stat this in 3.5?

[Zore]

If you want someone small who focuses on disarms and trips you probably would do better with Pathfinder than 3.5. In 3.5 the bonuses for size are just enormous and nigh impossible to overcome, especially if you aren't heavily pumping strength at every opportunity. If you want to focus on combat that requires to to be smaller than your opponent to to fun things to them there are feats like Confound the Big Folk from Races of the Wild that sorta fit what you're asking for.

[WarKitty]

If you want someone small who focuses on disarms and trips you probably would do better with Pathfinder than 3.5. In 3.5 the bonuses for size are just enormous and nigh impossible to overcome, especially if you aren't heavily pumping strength at every opportunity. If you want to focus on combat that requires to to be smaller than your opponent to to fun things to them there are feats like Confound the Big Folk from Races of the Wild that sorta fit what you're asking for.

We typically play PF/3.5 combo. I looked at PF though, it looked even worse for small size than 3.5 was.

[Zore]

We typically play PF/3.5 combo. I looked at PF though, it looked even worse for small size than 3.5 was.

The bonuses for size are smaller though you still get screwed because they rely on strength as well. Additionally special maneuvers in Pathfinder are explictly supposed to be weaker than in 3.5. If you want the absolute best you can get, grab Pathfinder size bonuses and the 3.5 feats. Even with that though your character will not be very effective at tripping and disarming.

[WarKitty]

So have I managed to find the archetype that you absolutely cannot stat in D&D? Pity - I've always had a fondness for a dexterity based warrior, they get shafted pretty badly.

[Zore]

So have I managed to find the archetype that you absolutely cannot stat in D&D? Pity - I've always had a fondness for a dexterity based warrior, they get shafted pretty badly.

Rereading Races of the Wild, if you can find a way to be two size categories smaller than your opponents you can use Confound the Big Folk to trip and hide in their square. It doesn't really come together until level nineish and will require you to use a web-enhancement Kobold or find a way to magically shrink yourself if you want to use it against medium opponents.

[Tukka]

This is the sort of thing that the Setting Sun school for martial adepts is supposed to help you realize. I'm not sure how well it does the job, though.

[Caliphbubba]

This is the sort of thing that the Setting Sun school for martial adepts is supposed to help you realize. I'm not sure how well it does the job, though.

Seconded. I think Swordsage with Setting Sun school maneuvers is the key to this. The basic maneuver lets you use Dex for your trips and gives you a +4 bonus to the attempt. Offsetting the penalty for being small to an extent.

[Coidzor]

+4 Imp. Trip, +4 stance -4 size. +DEX. +2 weapon bonus. +X Weapon Property.

You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

This is a key limiter on trip, at least in 3.5, especially for a small character. Unless there's some way by which to remove that cap?

[Caliphbubba]

+4 Imp. Trip, +4 stance -4 size. +DEX. +2 weapon bonus. +X Weapon Property.



This is a key limiter on trip, at least in 3.5, especially for a small character. Unless there's some way by which to remove that cap?

I wonder if there is a way to get Powerful Build on a small character. That'd get you up to large, and I think would get rid of the penatly for being small in the first place.

Psionic Expansion is the usual way of being able to trip bigger stuff I think. That sort of against the spirit of this though.

[awa]

you can do it in dnd as others have pointed its just not optimal

[DragoonWraith]

This is a key limiter on trip, at least in 3.5, especially for a small character. Unless there's some way by which to remove that cap?

Sure there is: Confound the Big Folk, as already mentioned! Yeah, you won't get to use Setting Sun maneuvers (but the Stance will stay), but anything you can't Trip, you can use Confound the Big Folk on.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if there is a way to get Powerful Build on a small character. That'd get you up to large, and I think would get rid of the penatly for being small in the first place.

Psionic Expansion is the usual way of being able to trip bigger stuff I think. That sort of against the spirit of this though.

Redcaps in MM3 are Small with Powerful Build- but have a lot of fey racial hit dice.

[true_shinken]

I wonder if there is a way to get Powerful Build on a small character. That'd get you up to large, and I think would get rid of the penatly for being small in the first place.

Half-giant + Return to Nature.
I actually thought about it for Iron Chef, but it seemed too cheesy.

[WarKitty]

Sounds like the key problem is WoTC seems to have conceptualized "trip" as "shove till they fall over." I'm used to "trip" as "hit just the right spot behind the knee and anything will fall over."

And yes I was the karate school trip attack person at 5 feet and 100 pounds.

[HunterOfJello]

Whisper Gnome + Factotum + Swordsage

[Gan The Grey]

Funny, the gnomes in my homebrew setting have Powerful Build. You should come play with me!

[Spiryt]

Sounds like the key problem is WoTC seems to have conceptualized "trip" as "shove till they fall over." I'm used to "trip" as "hit just the right spot behind the knee and anything will fall over."

And yes I was the karate school trip attack person at 5 feet and 100 pounds.

THat's not really problem. Yes, you can hit someone like that, but really only when he really don't know what he's doing. And still there would be some cap to this.

And as they made weapons like halberd with "trip" ability, they clearly had hooking someone down in mind.

No matter if you're trying to double or single leg someone, do some Judo trip, "football" tackle, slam, or other trip, the bigger and stronger you are, the easier you you'll achieve it, your skill is completely different matter.

So there's nothing particularly wrong with WotC concept here.

[WarKitty]

THat's not really problem. Yes, you can hit someone like that, but really only when he really don't know what he's doing. And still there would be some cap to this.

And as they made weapons like halberd with "trip" ability, they clearly had hooking someone down in mind.

No matter if you're trying to double or single leg someone, do some Judo trip, "football" tackle, slam, or other trip, the bigger and stronger you are, the easier you you'll achieve it, your skill is completely different matter.

So there's nothing particularly wrong with WotC concept here.

I was always taught if you were trying to use strength you were doing it wrong. The point was to find where the other person's guard was weak and attack it.

[Urpriest]

While it may not explicitly use trip/disarm, if you google The Other Killer Gnome you'll find a pretty interesting way to use small size to fight tactically.

[Spiryt]

I was always taught if you were trying to use strength you were doing it wrong. The point was to find where the other person's guard was weak and attack it.

Eh...

Of course, great aiming and technique is always a key, but still strenght is obviously crucial too.

They don't have weight classes in Judo, Wrestling, or whatever competitions just for giggles.

[WarKitty]

Eh...

Of course, great aiming and technique is always a key, but still strenght is obviously crucial too.

They don't have weight classes in Judo, Wrestling, or whatever competitions just for giggles.

Ah. See my training was in kenpo. The emphasis was on speed and flexibility (dex in DnD terms). You didn't have to be stronger than your opponent, you had to be faster and more accurate. Hit more quickly than he can move to block. Hence what I'm looking for in a class.

[DragoonWraith]

Ultimately, you need muscles to be fast. Plenty of strong people aren't fast, but between two people who have both trained for speed, the "stronger" one will be faster.

[Project_Mayhem]

I will nth setting sun swordsage. Thats what it's for

[Caliphbubba]

Redcaps in MM3 are Small with Powerful Build- but have a lot of fey racial hit dice.

Good call. thanks

Half-giant + Return to Nature.
I actually thought about it for Iron Chef, but it seemed too cheesy.

Where is Return to Nature from?

sounds like it could be pretty cool to me.

[Lapak]

Ah. See my training was in kenpo. The emphasis was on speed and flexibility (dex in DnD terms). You didn't have to be stronger than your opponent, you had to be faster and more accurate. Hit more quickly than he can move to block. Hence what I'm looking for in a class.

Sure, but there's an upper limit to what skill can accomplish. Imagine a kenpo match between a 6-foot, 220 pound adult man and a 3-foot, 40 pound five-year-old child. No matter how skillful the child is, sheer mass issues mean that there's an upper limit on how much he can do to the adult - and tripping him when he knows he's in a fight would be all but impossible.

[Spiryt]

Sure, but there's an upper limit to what skill can accomplish. Imagine a kenpo match between a 6-foot, 220 pound adult man and a 3-foot, 40 pound five-year-old child. No matter how skillful the child is, sheer mass issues mean that there's an upper limit on how much he can do to the adult - and tripping him when he knows he's in a fight would be all but impossible.

Exactly.

And since difference between halfling and man is actually relatively small in D&D, it still allows little guy to accomplish typical, fantasy heroic stuff, in with a bit of trying.

[WarKitty]

Point taken. I was thinking primarily in opposition to the classic dude in heave armor, although a tumble-and-shank-spellcaster might also be good.

[aquaticrna]

redcaps are awesome... the level offset is painful, but they get bonuses to stats at every hit die... +1 dex,str & con if i remember right in addition to natural armor and damage reduction increases every couple levels

[WarKitty]

redcaps are awesome... the level offset is painful, but they get bonuses to stats at every hit die... +1 dex,str & con if i remember right in addition to natural armor and damage reduction increases every couple levels

What book are redcaps in? One of my friends is planning a monstrous campaign coming soon.