Zerg lovers, assemble for a tactic againts fliers

[Pagz]

ok, so we all know that the zerg are... not the best late game, not so much against terran, but expecially against protoss. When I play against my mate he always plays protoss, and if I dont rush him before he can make carriers, im buggered, so heres the question

What tactics do you deploy against carriers/late game?

[The Glyphstone]

Scourges. Lots and lots of Scourges. Carriers are pretty much Scourgebait, and it only takes 6-8 of them to kill a Carrier, a great relative resource investment.

[Deepblue706]

Umm....mass carriers is actually a terrible strategy. What you should do is make a bunch of Ultralisks, and "cracklings" and just destroy his buildings.

If you'd rather fight the carriers, get some hydras and a defiler: dark swarm for hydras, plague the carriers, and bam. Place the swarms carefully, though.

Unless, of course, you're playing one of those silly money-maps. Then just build lots of scourges and hydras.

[Archonic Energy]

you little Zerg... you shall never beat my carriers...

*300 Scouge start kamakazing*

well... best 2/3?

carriers are bomb magnets. if your enemy gets to the point where they HAVE 6 carriers then you DESERVE to lose!

[Gamerofthegame]

Nope, see, What ya do is being that the protoss have no restore, suicide a few queens so you can do the sight thing (Forget the name) and watch the carriers, wait for their advance.

Once they begin to move to you, launch a mass wave of Scrouges and take them all out, completely killing the enemy funds.

If you kill all the carriers to soon then the protoss won't build them and you won't beable to cut their resources as much.

[Archonic Energy]

Nope, see, What ya do is being that the protoss have no restore, suicide a few queens so you can do the sight thing (Forget the name) and watch the carriers, wait for their advance.

Once they begin to move to you, launch a mass wave of Scrouges and take them all out, completely killing the enemy funds.

If you kill all the carriers to soon then the protoss won't build them and you won't beable to cut their resources as much.

PLEASE....
suicidong queens to plant parasites just makes me set up "fake" armies...

[Deepblue706]

Queens are a waste of time. They're only decent when going up against the tanks of a terran player.

Lings pwn. 4 take out 1 zealot, 1 takes out 1 bare marine. Just make lots and lots of lings. And then a few hydras. And then a few ultras. And then a few defliers, attacking whenever you have an opportunity. Zerg players must be aggressive at all times. In my opinion, they're the hardest to play right, but overall, the best.

[BelkarsDagger]

Lings pwn. Just make lots and lots of lings. And then a few hydras.

...You're one of my favorite posters for saying that. ;D

Distract the carriers with cheap units while you ambush them with scourge. Works best for me.

I agree on the zergling/hydralisk mass, though.

[Pagz]

carriers are bomb magnets. if your enemy gets to the point where they HAVE 6 carriers then you DESERVE to lose!

yer, it normally works out like that, distractions seem to be the best way. I sent around 46 zerglings to a protoss base, they attacked with carriers, I went around the back with 16 or so Ultralisks being dropped off by overlords (risky though) it worked. The only problem with scrouges is that im too unco and they all end up blowing up eachother when I send them :D

Zerg are the best fun to play, lol we should make a zerg template for d&d (like kerigans transformation) :P

[Krytha]

not everyone ends up with the millions of vespene needed for mass scourges. Honestly, a few hydras and some micro go MILES against the carrier massing protoss players. Combine scourges with hydras for best results, but honestly, hydras are more than enough.

[Gamerofthegame]

Ye gotta remember... Carriers are, if I remember, the most gas using unit in the game...

[Desidus]

As said earlier, massed Hydras on "Do not move", a couple of defilers, and you've got doom from below. However, if you prefer massed air, mutas/devourers, on money maps, are beautiful IF micromanaged. Otherwise, you're asking for death.


The problem is, unless it's a no rush money map that's huge, most people who mass carriers usually have a backup plan, or if not a backup then they micro their carriers. Pulling a carrier back when it starts to take directed fire often times leads to teh death of attackers who suddenly find themselves in the middle of far too many units (rule of thumb: it's harder for an enemy to directly target a carrier if the interceptors are intermingling with the carriers. Misclicks are doom).

However, to kill them, if highly massed, you have to micromanage to target the carriers, or be extremely patient. Either way, I'd say go hydras and lurkers for standard maps/defensive positions (best when an attack gets wiped and you realize you've got hell on wheels coming), dev's/mutas/scourge for money maps, and a mix for when you just want to play with people.

[Pagz]

people keep saying microgaming, im assuming that that is just repetitive clicking with a group of units? (my gaming vocabulary isnt so great)

Whenever I use hydras, they get mauled by carriers, quick and simple, im clearly doing something wrong, is that the same as microclicking?

ahh explain :)

[BelkarsDagger]

Micromanagement is where one does not blindly toss units at the enemy. You focus fire, or move around to dodge Lurker attacks. A single marine can kill a lurker if its done right. Strategy over brute force is what it is.

[Krytha]

Also, it is hard especially in a game like starcraft where you have so many units to worry about. Good examples of micro can be found in warcraft III - but even a little bit of micro can go a long way in SC.

[Desidus]

Also, it is hard especially in a game like starcraft where you have so many units to worry about. Good examples of micro can be found in warcraft III - but even a little bit of micro can go a long way in SC.

Read: high templar. 1 can turn an attack. 4 can massacre an army.

[Deepblue706]

Once, as terran, I played a 3 player ffa. The other two were zerg and protoss. They decided to just team against me - sending 4 lings and 1 zealot in a first wave.

I knew this was going to happen (the other two players were sissies) so I built a bunker and 1 marine ASAP. Then, when the attack eventually came, I had the SCVs attack the wave, retreat, attack again, as the one marine shot from safety, and managed to kill the entire force with only one casualty. Then, I pumped marines and medics, and slaughtered both players in under 15 minutes. For some reason, they continued to attack with the units as soon as they were produced - despite the fact that by the time they'd reach me, I'd already have just that many more units waiting (this was The Hunters, non-money).

Micro is an extremely important aspect of the game...unless you're playing a moneymap. In which case, you're a sissy.

[Archonic Energy]

Read: high templar. 1 can turn an attack. 4 can massacre an army.

seconded... and when you use the mana for 2 up... Ping instant mop up crew! (tho i must admit it is a waste)

unless you're playing a moneymap. In which case, you're a sissy.

also seconded.

[the_tick_rules]

i've always had trouble with scourges. When i send in a group one seems to blow up earlier than the others, destroying them before they detonate. sending them in individually to counter this leaves them to easy to destory.

Terran: if your terran use a science vessel emp wave and bye bye shields. Then goliaths and/or an air assault can kick some ass. valkeries can do some wicked damage to massed air units and 2 battle cruisers with yamato guns can destroy a carrier outright. using an emp before can be devastating.

Zerg: devourers(i think that it's name, the acid spore air unit) and mutalisks combined can be quite painful. i forget the name but the salamander lookin burrowing things(defiler i believe) plague can eat away their hulls so once the shields are breached it's easy pickings.

Protoss. Probably a few high templars electrcity storm could wreak some carnage. I would suggest sending in some small units to hold them down or they may fly away from it. Or the arbiters stasis field on half and stick it to the others.

[lor_mike]

Personally I usually go against air with a wave of devourers to put the spores for enhanced damadge then a wave or two of mutas to finish off the air.

As for main attack force fully upgrade a LOT of lings and put them in overlords bellys move behind enemy base and drop them off for mass chaos! Because if I remeber right the goal of the game is to destroy all enemy buildings, not necessarily ships or units

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The best way to defeat a carrier swarm as Zerg?

Easy

Never let them build any.

Seriously, even in Big Game Hunters type maps, you should easily be able to reach him with sufficent forces to delay his ability to build a Fleet Beacon long enough for you to finish upgrading your cracklings and ultralisks and proceed with the swarm tactics. Send in a swarm of 4 groups of cracklings and 6 ultralisks. While they are attacking, build up. By the time your swarm dies, you should have another ready to go. If you have enough hatcheries, you should have one force in Queue ready to go.

He'll be so busy defending himself from swarm after swarm of cracklings that he'll never get a chance to build that fleet beacon, and will be easy slaughter.

If you're silly enough to let him get amassed carriers... scourges work well 4-6 scourges takes out one carrier, at a whole lot less resources and time. I can crank out 6 scourges per hatchery, probably more, for every carrier you crank out and still have enough production left over to amass and launch swarms of cracklings.

[Jade_Tarem]

Looking at this from the opposite persepective... as one who usually plays against zerg, I found that even scourge swarms could be swatted down with relative ease if you know what you're doing. Turns out that the way the grouping/launching/poplimit system works, a sufficient air force of (Terran) 12 Battlecruisers, 6 Valkyries, and 8 Wraiths can down an infinite number of scourge, as can any (Protoss) force properly vanguarded by corsairs and high templar (and arbiters.)

What my friend did was rapid expansion. He went everywhere at once to gather resources, and defended his bases with purely automatic weaponry, the colony shooters. He then proceeded to go through his population liimit on guardians and defiliers. On the bigger maps he could fight with a force of defiliers and guardians so large that he could start building another group of them and send them at you before you were done with the first crew, while his resources continued to build. This doesn't work in maps with high population density, but this always struck me as zerg at their finest, even more so than the "zerg rush" - an infinite swarm.

The best example I can think of is the one where he developed the tactic. After trying to swarm my fleet for some time (5 solid minutes of nothing but a stream of scourge, and he wasn't sending them single file, if you catch my meaning. It was here that we discovered the terran group that could hold off all these scourge) He won despite the fact that my kill total went into 6 digits. (his only went to 4).

[Cybren]

1: Valkyries are bad.
2: The guarda-devo mass will be nice but playing a strategy that will only devlope late game is gonna suck if they have, oh, say.... one frickin' marine
3: devos are really bad vs scourge, and guardas aren't too hot against them either.

[Dausuul]

Late game, I favor devourers to deal with carriers. The trick with devourers is to use them in conjunction with mutalisks. A pack of purple spitters on their own won't do much, but when you have mutalisks doing their bouncy attack thing as well, and every bounce is getting +9 damage... it chews up enemy air units in a hell of a hurry.

If the enemy has corsair or Valkyrie escorts, send in the devourers first to splat them with purple goo. In addition to the damage boost, this slows down their fire rate a whole lot. Then you can bring your mutas in to clean up. Don't let the mutas into the fight until the enemy is well and truly gooed, because un-gooed corsairs/Valks can tear through mutas in seconds.

However, in general, I agree with the poster who said that if the enemy has gotten as far as building a fleet of carriers, you're doing something wrong. Zerg are at their strongest in the early/mid-game, while Protoss take a while to really get rolling. By the time your opponent is ready to build a fleet beacon, you should already be battering your way through his choke point, or dropping lurkers in his mineral line.

[Edit: Oops, forgot about the "Thread Necromancy" rule... sorry about that.]

[Logic]

My 2 friends used a team strategy that NEVER failed.
One was a protoss turtle.
The other built hydralisks, and only hydralisks. He went to enemy bases and they were simply wiped out.

[the_tick_rules]

the goliath with the increased air attack speed can seriously ruin flyers days also.

[blackout]

Three words: Lots. Of. Marines.

[Desidus]

Three words: Lots. Of. Marines.

Guardians.

Though, to be honest, anyone seeing lots of Marines coming their way should be scared. While relatively easy to kill, they have the uncanny ability to do the unexpected far too often

[blackout]

Exactly. :)

[Tor the Fallen]

How to defeat carriers:
Defilers, hydras, devourers, mutas, scourges, and a queen or two. If they have zealots or dark templar, a large group of lings will also be helpful.

By the time they have carriers, you should have burrow, range and speed upgrades for hydras, ensnare, plague, dark swarm and consume researched, and a greater spire. Lvl 1 upgrades for hydra attack and air is also a good choice.

If you can fight the carriers on your own terms, you have a much greater chance of winning, and will win for much cheaper.

First, make control groups of units. 3 control groups of hydra, 1 for devourer, and 2 for defilers. Make sure you remember what numbers you assigned them to.

When the carriers approach, let them move in close, away from hills, mountains, or water. Preferably near some trees or bushes. Immediately plague the carriers with one defiler and make dark swarms with the other. Move your hydralisks into the swarms and have them draw fire from the carriers while your defilers consume zerglings for energy. Make sure dark swarms are up all the time. Burrow your defilers somewhere safe but accessible.

IMMEDIATELY after you've 1) plagued, 2) swarmed, 3) moved in hydras, bring in devourers and have them focus on a single carrier. The carrier will take tons of damage, especially if your hydras are also focusing on the same carrier. The carriers may chase the devourers. Don't let the devourers die; they're expensive. Run them. They should escape, as they're fast.

If your hydras are under attack from enemy melee, move them and bring in lings. If there's a reaver or high templar, run the hydras and burrow them somewhere safe. Try to intercept zealots outside of swarms with lings, then hit with hydras.

Meanwhile, they're carriers are going to be doing not much against your ground forests. If they try to lure your hydras, either throw down more swarms and get 'lured', or hold position. Most likely, the enemy will go after your buildings.

This is ok. Keep hydras under swarms at all times, spread out in their three control groups, and focusing fire on a single carrier.

If the enemy is smart, they'll retreat. This is fine. Carriers are slow to pull out. Ensnare them. Keep hitting with hydras. Make sure the carriers are still plagued and spored by devourers. If the carriers make it away, say over water or an obstacle, send devourers, mutas, scourge and a queen. Use the queen to keep them ensnared. Make sure the scourge hit carriers and not interceptors, and that the mtas and devourers focus fire.

By now, the enemy should have no army.
Depending on the lay out of his base, how many units you have left, and how much damage he inflicted on your base, take this opportunity to
a) rebuild, expand, and hit his expos
b) finish him off

Hope this helps.