New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 48
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default All-Core Character HELP

    So i'm gonna be playing in a Core only campaign, 32-point buy.

    The character I'm trying to make will have decent skill points, helped by high int, decent-ish combat skills, and some minor spellcasting

    Here's a simplified version: LN Human
    Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3/Dragon Disciple 7

    Note that my DM has waived the requirement of mage hand from Arcane Trickster, and the Evil alignment requirement from Assassin

    Here's the full version
    Spoiler
    Show

    Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
    Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven
    Final Hit Dice: 2d10+3d4+8d6+7d12
    Final Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8

    Level 1: Rogue
    Starting Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
    Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
    Skills bought: 4 Decipher Script, 4 Disable Device, 4 Disguise, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Hide, 4 Listen, 4 Move Silently, 4 Open Lock, 4 Search, 4 UMD, 4 Use Rope
    Saves (total): FORT +1, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +0
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 1d6 Sneak Attack, trapfinding

    Level 2: Fighter
    Fighter Bonus Feat: Quick Draw
    Skills bought: 5 Climb, 1 Ride
    Saves (total): FORT +3, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +1

    Level 3: Fighter
    Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
    Feat: Combat Reflexes
    Skills bought: 1 Climb, 5 Jump
    Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +2

    Level 4: Rogue
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 3 Decipher Script, 3 Disable Device, 3 Hide, 3 Move Silently
    Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +6, WILL -1
    BAB: +3
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Evasion

    Level 5: Rogue
    Skills bought: 1 Disable Device, 1 Hide, 1 Move Silently, 4 UMD, 3 Escape Artist, 1(cc) Knowledge (arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +6, WILL +0
    BAB: +4
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1

    Level 6: Assassin
    Feat: Blind-fight
    Skills bought: 3(cc) Knowledge (Arcana), 1 UMD, 1 Open Locks
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +8, WILL +0
    BAB: +4
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak attack 3d6, death attack, poison use, spells
    Spells Learned: 1st- True Strike, Obscuring Mist

    Level 7: Assassin
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 2 Disable Device, 5 Open Lock
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +9, WILL +0
    BAB: +5
    Class Abilities granted/improved: +1 vs. poison, uncanny dodge
    Spells Learned: 1st- Disguise Self

    Level 8: Assassin
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 5 Search
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +9, WILL +1
    BAB: +6
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 4d6 sneak attack
    Spells Learned: 2nd - invisibility, spider climb

    Level 9: Assassin
    Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 2 Search, 3 Move Silently
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: +2 vs. poison
    Spells Learned: 1st - ghost sound, 2nd - darkness

    Level 10: Assassin
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 3 Move Silently, 1 Use Rope
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 5d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge
    Spells Learned: 3rd - deeper darkness, false life

    Level 11: Arcane Trickster
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +12, WILL +3
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: ranged legerdemain 1/day
    Spells Learned: 2nd - pass w/o trace 3rd - magic circle against good

    Level 12: Arcane Trickster
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Feat: Combat Casting
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +14, WILL +4
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 6d6 sneak attack
    Spells Learned: 4th - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility

    Level 13: Arcane Trickster
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Hide
    Saves (total): FORT +7, REF +14, WILL +4
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: impromtu sneak attack 1/day
    Spells Learned: 3rd - deep slumber 4th - Locate Creature

    Level 14: Dragon Disciple
    Dragon Type: Silver
    Skills bought: 6 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +9, REF +14, WILL +6
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Nat. Armor +1, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 15: Dragon Disciple
    Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
    Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Local), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Engineering), 1 Knowledge (Geography), 1 Knowledge (History)
    Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +14, WILL +7
    BAB: +9
    Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, Claws and bite, Bonus Spell (2nd)

    Level 16: Dragon Disciple
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Nature), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), 1 Knowledge (The Planes), 1 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
    Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +15, WILL +7
    BAB: +10
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 2d8

    Level 17: Dragon Disciple
    Skills bought: 5 Search, 1 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
    BAB: +11
    Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, nat. armor +2, Bonus Spell (1st)

    Level 18: Dragon Disciple
    Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
    BAB: +11
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Blindsense 30ft, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 19: Dragon Disciple
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +16, WILL +9
    BAB: +12
    Class Abilities granted/improved: CON +2, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 20: Dragon Disciple
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +17, WILL +9
    BAB: +13
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 4d8, Nat. Armor +3

    Last edited by Adrayll; 2010-09-30 at 08:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    in the playground.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrayll View Post
    So i'm gonna be playing in a Core only campaign, 32-point buy.

    The character I'm trying to make will have decent skill points, helped by high int, decent-ish combat skills, and some minor spellcasting

    Here's a simplified version: LN Human
    Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3/Dragon Disciple 7

    Note that my DM has waived the requirement of mage hand from Arcane Trickster, and the Evil alignment requirement from Assassin

    Here's the full version
    Spoiler
    Show

    Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
    Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven
    Final Hit Dice: 2d10+3d4+8d6+7d12
    Final Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8

    Level 1: Rogue
    Starting Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
    Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
    Skills bought: 4 Decipher Script, 4 Disable Device, 4 Disguise, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Hide, 4 Listen, 4 Move Silently, 4 Open Lock, 4 Search, 4 UMD, 4 Use Rope
    Saves (total): FORT +1, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +0
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 1d6 Sneak Attack, trapfinding

    Level 2: Fighter
    Fighter Bonus Feat: Quick Draw
    Skills bought: 5 Climb, 1 Ride
    Saves (total): FORT +3, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +1

    Level 3: Fighter
    Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
    Feat: Combat Reflexes
    Skills bought: 1 Climb, 5 Jump
    Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +4, WILL -1
    BAB: +2

    Level 4: Rogue
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 3 Decipher Script, 3 Disable Device, 3 Hide, 3 Move Silently
    Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +6, WILL -1
    BAB: +3
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Evasion

    Level 5: Rogue
    Skills bought: 1 Disable Device, 1 Hide, 1 Move Silently, 4 UMD, 3 Escape Artist, 1(cc) Knowledge (arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +6, WILL +0
    BAB: +4
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1

    Level 6: Assassin
    Feat: Blind-fight
    Skills bought: 3(cc) Knowledge (Arcana), 1 UMD, 1 Open Locks
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +8, WILL +0
    BAB: +4
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak attack 3d6, death attack, poison use, spells
    Spells Learned: 1st- True Strike, Obscuring Mist

    Level 7: Assassin
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 2 Disable Device, 5 Open Lock
    Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +9, WILL +0
    BAB: +5
    Class Abilities granted/improved: +1 vs. poison, uncanny dodge
    Spells Learned: 1st- Disguise Self

    Level 8: Assassin
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 5 Search
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +9, WILL +1
    BAB: +6
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 4d6 sneak attack
    Spells Learned: 2nd - invisibility, spider climb

    Level 9: Assassin
    Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 2 Search, 3 Move Silently
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: +2 vs. poison
    Spells Learned: 1st - ghost sound, 2nd - darkness

    Level 10: Assassin
    Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 3 Move Silently, 1 Use Rope
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 5d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge
    Spells Learned: 3rd - deeper darkness, false life

    Level 11: Arcane Trickster
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +12, WILL +3
    BAB: +7
    Class Abilities granted/improved: ranged legerdemain 1/day
    Spells Learned: 2nd - pass w/o trace 3rd - magic circle against good

    Level 12: Arcane Trickster
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Feat: Combat Casting
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
    Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +14, WILL +4
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: 6d6 sneak attack
    Spells Learned: 4th - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility

    Level 13: Arcane Trickster
    Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Hide
    Saves (total): FORT +7, REF +14, WILL +4
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: impromtu sneak attack 1/day
    Spells Learned: 3rd - deep slumber 4th - Locate Creature

    Level 14: Dragon Disciple
    Dragon Type: Silver
    Skills bought: 6 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +9, REF +14, WILL +6
    BAB: +8
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Nat. Armor +1, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 15: Dragon Disciple
    Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
    Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Local), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Engineering), 1 Knowledge (Geography), 1 Knowledge (History)
    Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +14, WILL +7
    BAB: +9
    Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, Claws and bite, Bonus Spell (2nd)

    Level 16: Dragon Disciple
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Nature), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), 1 Knowledge (The Planes), 1 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
    Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +15, WILL +7
    BAB: +10
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 2d8

    Level 17: Dragon Disciple
    Skills bought: 5 Search, 1 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
    BAB: +11
    Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, nat. armor +2, Bonus Spell (1st)

    Level 18: Dragon Disciple
    Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
    BAB: +11
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Blindsense 30ft, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 19: Dragon Disciple
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +16, WILL +9
    BAB: +12
    Class Abilities granted/improved: CON +2, Bonus Spell (4th)

    Level 20: Dragon Disciple
    Ability Score Increase: DEX
    Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
    Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +17, WILL +9
    BAB: +13
    Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 4d8, Nat. Armor +3

    It looks pretty good, anything in particular you need help with?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Shadowleaf's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    You won't be very effective - choose a role and stick to it. Your Dragon Disciple doesn't help your skillmonkey needs, for example.
    Other than the fact that you won't be very effective, you are going to have to decide what to do each round - you don't have time to both use your breath, attack and cast a spell, so you'll have to choose which "type" of character you will act as each round - and your action will be less than on par with a specialized character.
    This also goes for feats - TWF and Cleave does not go well together.
    An equal level straight Rogue, Wizard or Fighter would tear you apart.

    I suggest either going Cleric, and ask if you can get to use the Cloistered Cleric version. 6+int mod skill points, and with the right domains (cough Trickery) you'll have your Hide and Move Silently, spellcasting and good skill points, or go Rogue with UMD for wands.

    I guess a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster with Ray spells would be okay too. You get SA on spells with an attack roll (as long as you apply for a SA as well, of course) - very important to remember.
    Last edited by Shadowleaf; 2010-09-30 at 09:20 PM.
    English is a second language etc etc.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Agreed, you're spreading yourself way too thin. Especially in Core only, it's key to pick a specific role and focus on it.

    Rogue/Assassin is adequate - it's Rogue With Magic, always a good thing. Just don't ever waste your turns Death Attacking. Flavor with Fighter 1 or 2 for BAB and feats.

    a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster isn't bad - Ranged Legerdemain makes for some nasty ranged touch sneak attacks.

    Dragon Disciple is just a very weak class. Its best use is in a Sorcerer/Barbarian mix, but that's dependent on non-core swift action buffs for maximum effectiveness.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Just don't ever waste your turns Death Attacking.
    At least, not when combat is already happening. (If you can spend 3 rounds studying an opponent across the table at a fancy banquet, when he has no idea he's about to be attacked, then by all means start the combat with a surprise-round Death Attack.)
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    At least, not when combat is already happening. (If you can spend 3 rounds studying an opponent across the table at a fancy banquet, when he has no idea he's about to be attacked, then by all means start the combat with a surprise-round Death Attack.)
    Fair enough. In the rare circumstances where you can build up the three rounds of study out of combat, go for it. But in combat, you'll always do more damage with four consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage than you will with waiting to set up a DA.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Fair enough. In the rare circumstances where you can build up the three rounds of study out of combat, go for it. But in combat, you'll always do more damage with four consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage than you will with waiting to set up a DA.
    Absolutely.
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
    So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrayll View Post
    Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
    So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?
    Impromptu Sneak Attack is pretty great, but personally I find Hide In Plain Sight sufficiently awesome that I'd strongly lean towards taking Assassin to 8 at least.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Rogue 7/ Assassin 8/Arcane Tricker 5?
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Arcane Trickster would work better on a Rogue/Wizard. You don't get enough higher-level spells with an Assassin to make it as effective. Impromptu Sneak Attack is really great if you have rays or touch attacks that you can use from 30-ft, but as an Assassin you will more likely fight in melee, in which case you'll probably get Sneak Attack from flanking anyway.

    A straight Rogue/Assassin or a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin will have more HP, better BAB, and the same spells compared to a Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Trickster.

    However, if you're going for a skillmonkey, a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster will have access to a wider range of class skills, including all the Knowledge skills. You'll have more options for magical troubleshooting, and you'll also be able to use a wider range of scrolls and wands without UMD.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Elsewhen
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    What level is the game starting at? Your build looked like it was set up for a level 20 character. Are you really starting that high?




    I have to throw in a vote for Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster X. You would have some good Int Synergy and be able to focus on Int and Dex as your primary stats. You obviously lose out on 3 spell levels this way, so I'd try to beg your DM to let you take Practiced Spellcaster, but if you're absolutely limited to core, then I can understand.


    The Assassin prestige class is obviously better than taking more levels of Rogue past 5, but isn't that great on its own compared to an Arcane Trickster.

    ~

    If you go Arcane Trickster, be sure to grab plenty of battle field control spells along with low level rays. Remember, you can sneak attack with rays by doing ranged touch attacks.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    I'm a KISS kind of guy. Why not go Rogue 20 (max out the skill points, skill monkey!), make sure you max out Use Magic Device, and have a pile of wands handy?
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2010-10-01 at 12:43 AM.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    I'm a KISS kind of guy. Why not go Rogue 20 (max out the skill points, skill monkey!), make sure you max out Use Magic Device, and have a pile of wands handy?
    Because Rogue 20 is the deadest of dead levels?
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    ..wait, it's simpler to carry a backpack full of every wand you think you'll ever need than to try to learn how to do it yourself?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post

    a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster isn't bad - Ranged Legerdemain makes for some nasty ranged touch sneak attacks.
    How do you make a sneak attack with ranged ledgerdemain - isn't the class feature for the skill use only?
    I actually have had quite a trouble with the wording of this feature anyway.
    As I posted some time ago.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ed+legerdemain
    Its hard to understand how many sleight of hands per day can you make, and the feature doesn't seem to be better than just having a few mage hands available.
    Last edited by jpreem; 2010-10-01 at 03:34 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Because Rogue 20 is the deadest of dead levels?
    Pretty much. Even a single level in shadowdancer is far better.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by jpreem View Post
    How do you make a sneak attack with ranged ledgerdemain - isn't the class feature for the skill use only?
    I actually have had quite a trouble with the wording of this feature anyway.
    As I posted some time ago.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ed+legerdemain
    Its hard to understand how many sleight of hands per day can you make, and the feature doesn't seem to be better than just having a few mage hands available.
    Wherps. I was getting Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack mixed up.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Runite
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    I suggest going Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 10, I feel ranger set ups nicely for assassinss, with the start of TWF tree for free, the BAB increase is not bad. Also I think it is reasonable to ask your DM to let you add you Favorite Enemy bonus to the DC of Death Attack,, it feats at least fluffwise.
    Just call me Dusk
    Avatar by Ceika

    Dming: Eyes of the Lich Queen IC OOC


  20. - Top - End - #20
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    One relatively awesome build for Core-only Rogue is Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10. It gets level 18 Wizard casting over its career and thanks to the Int-focus and going Rogue first, it also gets a crapton of skill points (way more than same build with Sorcerer, for example). Then you can finish off with Loremaster, Archmage or whatever your feats feel like.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    ..wait, it's simpler to carry a backpack full of every wand you think you'll ever need than to try to learn how to do it yourself?
    Actually, yes, if you also want a skill monkey as the OP said he wanted. The relevant wands/staffs/scrolls and magic items that can carry the same are not too expensive once you are high level, and if you have a good UMD you don't have to worry about what spell list they are on or whether you can learn the spell or not. Plus, you get to keep the 8 skill points per rank for skill monkey stuff which (the OP said he wanted to go the skill monkey route - that generally requires skill points).

    And 20th rogue is not totally dead, since you get 8 skill points and +1 BAB. I don't think any other core base class or core prestige class gives 8 skill points, and for core, only the ranger gives both 6 skill points an a +1 BAB together.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1 is definitely better than Rogue 20 in Core. Shadowdancer 2 has some cute abilities too, but the Rogue special ability tends to be more useful. Really, Rogue design is awesome; definitely a class offering something basically all the way (except yes, the 20th level is waste of your time).
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Rogue 19/Assassin 1 is also viable.

    Really, anything is better than a dead level, though.

    I find that a single level of assassin, followed by a level of shadowdancer, then back to more levels of rogue is also nice. HIPS faster than you'd get it through straight assassin, no slowing of sneak attack progression, and some nice abilities from dipping assassin.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    I'm starting at Lvl 3. Is spiked chain viable as an alternative to TWF?
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrayll View Post
    I'm starting at Lvl 3. Is spiked chain viable as an alternative to TWF?
    If you have lots of Strength (in addition to lots of Dex; thus a generous stat array). The maneuvers that interest you with Spiked Chain tend to mesh well with Str. With additional books, Dex-base SC gets better but in Core, if you wanna deal damage, all you want to be doing is applying your Sneak Attack damage as often as possible.

    Kusari-Gama is a light reach weapon you could TWF with (it's in DMG Pg. 144) so if you want a Spiked Chainish weapon for TWF, that's a decent option. Reach is always good, after all. That said, the part about TWF you care about is maximizing the number of attacks you get to apply Sneak Attack damage as often as possible, so any option that gets less attacks is unlike to be of interest to you.

    Spiked Chain is a great weapon for two-hander as it's reach but threatens adjacent and gets 1.5xStr and works for Trips; basically all a two-hander cares about. For you though, you are unlike to be tripping (no Str for the check), unlike to have enough Strength for 1.5x to help notably and unlike to be using Power Attack (given you lack full BAB) meaning you get nothing but the reach from SC which, while useful, isn't worth a feat and halving your damage output.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Kusari-Gama is a light reach weapon you could TWF with (it's in DMG Pg. 144) so if you want a Spiked Chainish weapon for TWF, that's a decent option. Reach is always good, after all. That said, the part about TWF you care about is maximizing the number of attacks you get to apply Sneak Attack damage as often as possible, so any option that gets less attacks is unlike to be of interest to you.
    So two kusari-gama? Or a single-hand weapon and a kusari-gama?
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrayll View Post
    So two kusari-gama? Or a single-hand weapon and a kusari-gama?
    If you go Kusari-Gama, go two Kusari-Gamas. Reach is remarkably underwhelming if only one of your weapons has it (kinda defeats the point of being able to attack 10' away if you can't do it efficiently). Besides, Kusari-Gama is way better than every one-handed martial melee weapon if you aren't using Power Attack (which, as a two-weapon fighting non-full bab low-str type, you are not). So if you go far enough to invest a feat in Kusari-Gama, you'll absolutely dual wield them.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-01 at 07:04 PM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Runite
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    hmmm I am half tempted to re stat Dusk eclipse taking all this advice into consideration....
    Last edited by Dusk Eclipse; 2010-10-01 at 07:10 PM.
    Just call me Dusk
    Avatar by Ceika

    Dming: Eyes of the Lich Queen IC OOC


  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    So, aside from EWP: Kusari-gama, and the TWF line, what other feats should I get/need?
    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    That does not change the fact that were his proportions normalized, I would invite him into my magnificent mansion anytime. With Extend Metamagic.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: All-Core Character HELP

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrayll View Post
    Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
    So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?
    Your build is pretty nice, just remove Dragon Disciple and go all 10 levels in Arcane Trickster. You keep all the important skills up, you get some magic, and you get some nice tricks.

    Or, go Rogue3/Fighter2/Assassin9/Arcane Trickster6. Get HIPS and maxed SA out of Assassin, then go into AT for Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-10-01 at 07:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •