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Thread: All-Core Character HELP
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2010-09-30, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
All-Core Character HELP
So i'm gonna be playing in a Core only campaign, 32-point buy.
The character I'm trying to make will have decent skill points, helped by high int, decent-ish combat skills, and some minor spellcasting
Here's a simplified version: LN Human
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3/Dragon Disciple 7
Note that my DM has waived the requirement of mage hand from Arcane Trickster, and the Evil alignment requirement from Assassin
Here's the full version
Spoiler
Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven
Final Hit Dice: 2d10+3d4+8d6+7d12
Final Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Level 1: Rogue
Starting Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Skills bought: 4 Decipher Script, 4 Disable Device, 4 Disguise, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Hide, 4 Listen, 4 Move Silently, 4 Open Lock, 4 Search, 4 UMD, 4 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +1, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +0
Class Abilities granted/improved: 1d6 Sneak Attack, trapfinding
Level 2: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Quick Draw
Skills bought: 5 Climb, 1 Ride
Saves (total): FORT +3, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +1
Level 3: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Skills bought: 1 Climb, 5 Jump
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +2
Level 4: Rogue
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 3 Decipher Script, 3 Disable Device, 3 Hide, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +6, WILL -1
BAB: +3
Class Abilities granted/improved: Evasion
Level 5: Rogue
Skills bought: 1 Disable Device, 1 Hide, 1 Move Silently, 4 UMD, 3 Escape Artist, 1(cc) Knowledge (arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +6, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1
Level 6: Assassin
Feat: Blind-fight
Skills bought: 3(cc) Knowledge (Arcana), 1 UMD, 1 Open Locks
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +8, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak attack 3d6, death attack, poison use, spells
Spells Learned: 1st- True Strike, Obscuring Mist
Level 7: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 2 Disable Device, 5 Open Lock
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +9, WILL +0
BAB: +5
Class Abilities granted/improved: +1 vs. poison, uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 1st- Disguise Self
Level 8: Assassin
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 5 Search
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +9, WILL +1
BAB: +6
Class Abilities granted/improved: 4d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 2nd - invisibility, spider climb
Level 9: Assassin
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 2 Search, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: +2 vs. poison
Spells Learned: 1st - ghost sound, 2nd - darkness
Level 10: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 3 Move Silently, 1 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: 5d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 3rd - deeper darkness, false life
Level 11: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +12, WILL +3
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: ranged legerdemain 1/day
Spells Learned: 2nd - pass w/o trace 3rd - magic circle against good
Level 12: Arcane Trickster
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Feat: Combat Casting
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: 6d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 4th - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility
Level 13: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Hide
Saves (total): FORT +7, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: impromtu sneak attack 1/day
Spells Learned: 3rd - deep slumber 4th - Locate Creature
Level 14: Dragon Disciple
Dragon Type: Silver
Skills bought: 6 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +9, REF +14, WILL +6
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: Nat. Armor +1, Bonus Spell (4th)
Level 15: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Local), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Engineering), 1 Knowledge (Geography), 1 Knowledge (History)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +14, WILL +7
BAB: +9
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, Claws and bite, Bonus Spell (2nd)
Level 16: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Nature), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), 1 Knowledge (The Planes), 1 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +15, WILL +7
BAB: +10
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 2d8
Level 17: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 5 Search, 1 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, nat. armor +2, Bonus Spell (1st)
Level 18: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: Blindsense 30ft, Bonus Spell (4th)
Level 19: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +16, WILL +9
BAB: +12
Class Abilities granted/improved: CON +2, Bonus Spell (4th)
Level 20: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +17, WILL +9
BAB: +13
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 4d8, Nat. Armor +3
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2010-09-30, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-30, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: All-Core Character HELP
You won't be very effective - choose a role and stick to it. Your Dragon Disciple doesn't help your skillmonkey needs, for example.
Other than the fact that you won't be very effective, you are going to have to decide what to do each round - you don't have time to both use your breath, attack and cast a spell, so you'll have to choose which "type" of character you will act as each round - and your action will be less than on par with a specialized character.
This also goes for feats - TWF and Cleave does not go well together.
An equal level straight Rogue, Wizard or Fighter would tear you apart.
I suggest either going Cleric, and ask if you can get to use the Cloistered Cleric version. 6+int mod skill points, and with the right domains (cough Trickery) you'll have your Hide and Move Silently, spellcasting and good skill points, or go Rogue with UMD for wands.
I guess a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster with Ray spells would be okay too. You get SA on spells with an attack roll (as long as you apply for a SA as well, of course) - very important to remember.Last edited by Shadowleaf; 2010-09-30 at 09:20 PM.
English is a second language etc etc.
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2010-09-30, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Agreed, you're spreading yourself way too thin. Especially in Core only, it's key to pick a specific role and focus on it.
Rogue/Assassin is adequate - it's Rogue With Magic, always a good thing. Just don't ever waste your turns Death Attacking. Flavor with Fighter 1 or 2 for BAB and feats.
a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster isn't bad - Ranged Legerdemain makes for some nasty ranged touch sneak attacks.
Dragon Disciple is just a very weak class. Its best use is in a Sorcerer/Barbarian mix, but that's dependent on non-core swift action buffs for maximum effectiveness.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2010-09-30, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
You can call me Draz.
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2010-09-30, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2010-09-30, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
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- Gender
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-09-30, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
Re: All-Core Character HELP
Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?
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2010-09-30, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-30, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-30, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Arcane Trickster would work better on a Rogue/Wizard. You don't get enough higher-level spells with an Assassin to make it as effective. Impromptu Sneak Attack is really great if you have rays or touch attacks that you can use from 30-ft, but as an Assassin you will more likely fight in melee, in which case you'll probably get Sneak Attack from flanking anyway.
A straight Rogue/Assassin or a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin will have more HP, better BAB, and the same spells compared to a Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Trickster.
However, if you're going for a skillmonkey, a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster will have access to a wider range of class skills, including all the Knowledge skills. You'll have more options for magical troubleshooting, and you'll also be able to use a wider range of scrolls and wands without UMD.
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2010-09-30, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
What level is the game starting at? Your build looked like it was set up for a level 20 character. Are you really starting that high?
I have to throw in a vote for Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster X. You would have some good Int Synergy and be able to focus on Int and Dex as your primary stats. You obviously lose out on 3 spell levels this way, so I'd try to beg your DM to let you take Practiced Spellcaster, but if you're absolutely limited to core, then I can understand.
The Assassin prestige class is obviously better than taking more levels of Rogue past 5, but isn't that great on its own compared to an Arcane Trickster.
~
If you go Arcane Trickster, be sure to grab plenty of battle field control spells along with low level rays. Remember, you can sneak attack with rays by doing ranged touch attacks.
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2010-10-01, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Utah
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-10-01, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: All-Core Character HELP
..wait, it's simpler to carry a backpack full of every wand you think you'll ever need than to try to learn how to do it yourself?
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2010-10-01, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
How do you make a sneak attack with ranged ledgerdemain - isn't the class feature for the skill use only?
I actually have had quite a trouble with the wording of this feature anyway.
As I posted some time ago.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ed+legerdemain
Its hard to understand how many sleight of hands per day can you make, and the feature doesn't seem to be better than just having a few mage hands available.Last edited by jpreem; 2010-10-01 at 03:34 AM.
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2010-10-01, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
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2010-10-01, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2010-10-01, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
I suggest going Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 10, I feel ranger set ups nicely for assassinss, with the start of TWF tree for free, the BAB increase is not bad. Also I think it is reasonable to ask your DM to let you add you Favorite Enemy bonus to the DC of Death Attack,, it feats at least fluffwise.
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2010-10-01, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
One relatively awesome build for Core-only Rogue is Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10. It gets level 18 Wizard casting over its career and thanks to the Int-focus and going Rogue first, it also gets a crapton of skill points (way more than same build with Sorcerer, for example). Then you can finish off with Loremaster, Archmage or whatever your feats feel like.
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2010-10-01, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Actually, yes, if you also want a skill monkey as the OP said he wanted. The relevant wands/staffs/scrolls and magic items that can carry the same are not too expensive once you are high level, and if you have a good UMD you don't have to worry about what spell list they are on or whether you can learn the spell or not. Plus, you get to keep the 8 skill points per rank for skill monkey stuff which (the OP said he wanted to go the skill monkey route - that generally requires skill points).
And 20th rogue is not totally dead, since you get 8 skill points and +1 BAB. I don't think any other core base class or core prestige class gives 8 skill points, and for core, only the ranger gives both 6 skill points an a +1 BAB together.
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2010-10-01, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1 is definitely better than Rogue 20 in Core. Shadowdancer 2 has some cute abilities too, but the Rogue special ability tends to be more useful. Really, Rogue design is awesome; definitely a class offering something basically all the way (except yes, the 20th level is waste of your time).
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2010-10-01, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Rogue 19/Assassin 1 is also viable.
Really, anything is better than a dead level, though.
I find that a single level of assassin, followed by a level of shadowdancer, then back to more levels of rogue is also nice. HIPS faster than you'd get it through straight assassin, no slowing of sneak attack progression, and some nice abilities from dipping assassin.
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2010-10-01, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
If you have lots of Strength (in addition to lots of Dex; thus a generous stat array). The maneuvers that interest you with Spiked Chain tend to mesh well with Str. With additional books, Dex-base SC gets better but in Core, if you wanna deal damage, all you want to be doing is applying your Sneak Attack damage as often as possible.
Kusari-Gama is a light reach weapon you could TWF with (it's in DMG Pg. 144) so if you want a Spiked Chainish weapon for TWF, that's a decent option. Reach is always good, after all. That said, the part about TWF you care about is maximizing the number of attacks you get to apply Sneak Attack damage as often as possible, so any option that gets less attacks is unlike to be of interest to you.
Spiked Chain is a great weapon for two-hander as it's reach but threatens adjacent and gets 1.5xStr and works for Trips; basically all a two-hander cares about. For you though, you are unlike to be tripping (no Str for the check), unlike to have enough Strength for 1.5x to help notably and unlike to be using Power Attack (given you lack full BAB) meaning you get nothing but the reach from SC which, while useful, isn't worth a feat and halving your damage output.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-10-01, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
If you go Kusari-Gama, go two Kusari-Gamas. Reach is remarkably underwhelming if only one of your weapons has it (kinda defeats the point of being able to attack 10' away if you can't do it efficiently). Besides, Kusari-Gama is way better than every one-handed martial melee weapon if you aren't using Power Attack (which, as a two-weapon fighting non-full bab low-str type, you are not). So if you go far enough to invest a feat in Kusari-Gama, you'll absolutely dual wield them.
Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-01 at 07:04 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-10-01, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All-Core Character HELP
Your build is pretty nice, just remove Dragon Disciple and go all 10 levels in Arcane Trickster. You keep all the important skills up, you get some magic, and you get some nice tricks.
Or, go Rogue3/Fighter2/Assassin9/Arcane Trickster6. Get HIPS and maxed SA out of Assassin, then go into AT for Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-10-01 at 07:19 PM.
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