Undead and fear

[Zanticor]

Dear Playground,

I was wondering about undead and their immunities thanks to our last encounter with a ghost. Because the fight was going south fast, my illusionist send the creep to the shadow plane with the ever handy spell: shadow well from the spell compendium. Its an illusion shadow spell without any mind-affecting description. It does however have a chance to scare the subject for a couple of rounds when they return from the scary shadow world. Now my DM ruled the ghost was immune to all fear effects because all undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. That's of course fine because he is the man in charge, but what do you think? Is fear is always mind-affecting? Why then do they run away after a turn-undead? Should shadow well be altered to say: partially mind-affecting? Many thanks for your thoughts.

Zanticor

[Yuki Akuma]

Undead don't have a blanket immunity to fear effects - not all fear effects are mind-affecting. A dragon's Frightful Presence, for example.

Things with an immunity to fear effects say they have an immunity to fear effects, not mind-affecting abilities. See the Paladin, for instance.

Your DM was wrong and you should tell him this. At length.

[Kaww]

I would also say that the ghost is immune to THIS SPECIFIC fear effect. This is just fluff. He shouldn't be scared of anything from a shadow plane.

In general: no, undead are not immune to fear (Turn makes undead flee in fear I think).

[Yuki Akuma]

I would also say that the ghost is immune to THIS SPECIFIC fear effect. This is just fluff. He shouldn't be scared of anything from a shadow plane.

Why not? Ghosts are native to the Ethereal lane, not the Plane of Shadow. The Plane of Shadow has nothing to do with the undead in 3.5.

[Kaww]

What could/should scare you that is in the Plane of Shadow? You know that you are dead and that whatever happens you will respawn in couple of days?

[drakir_nosslin]

What could/should scare you that is in the Plane of Shadow? You know that you are dead and that whatever happens you will respawn in couple of days?

So? Even if you are 'completely' safe, i.e it is probable that nothing bad will happen to you in a certain situation, you can still feel fear.
People with phobias experience this every day, and nothing says ghosts can't have phobias, for example.

[Yuki Akuma]

What could/should scare you that is in the Plane of Shadow? You know that you are dead and that whatever happens you will respawn in couple of days?

The Plane of Shadow is a twisted, horrific mockery of the Material Plane. Ghosts are creatures of the Material Plane (as well as the Ethereal Plane), so the strangeness should scare them just as much as it scares mortals.

[Kaww]

So? Even if you are 'completely' safe, i.e it is probable that nothing bad will happen to you in a certain situation, you can still feel fear.
People with phobias experience this every day, and nothing says ghosts can't have phobias, for example.

Then just present the bunny. No need for a fear spell...

[drakir_nosslin]

Then just present the bunny. No need for a fear spell...

Indeed, plot devices are wonderful

[Person_Man]

From the SRD:

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Undead Type

Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features

An undead creature has the following features.

* 12-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard).
* Good Will saves.
* Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
* Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Your DM is correct.

[Zanticor]

Interesting take on this Person_Man! Would you really say this is a fear attack? You posted the SRD about special abilities which gives fear aura, cones, rays and presences as example abilities but those don't apply here. So I don't think this is a fear attack

All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

That does not say that all fear effects are mind-affecting. I do see that this is a fair ruling, but I'd like to see if that's what everyone else plays by. Are undead never afraid?

[Maryring]

It is most certainly an attack, and even then, fear is a morale effect, which ghosts are immune to.

[mootoall]

I'd say that undead that aren't intelligent (skeletons, zombies) would be immune to fear effect. Intelligent ones, I'd say that, say, a lich would feel fear. I mean, self-preservation is the basis of fear most of the time, and undead can be destroyed.

[Aotrs Commander]

Interesting take on this Person_Man! Would you really say this is a fear attack? You posted the SRD about special abilities which gives fear aura, cones, rays and presences as example abilities but those don't apply here. So I don't think this is a fear attack

All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

That does not say that all fear effects are mind-affecting. I do see that this is a fair ruling, but I'd like to see if that's what everyone else plays by. Are undead never afraid?

I think, Zanticor, you're kinda clutching at straws a bit, trying to split up "fear attack" from "fear effects"; they're the same thing.

The rules are pretty much emphatic: in every reference to the rules for fear, it says fear attacks are mind-affecting right in the first paragraph (Rules Compendium, MM, etc). Fear "effects" and fear "attacks" are basically the same thing. Basically anything that causes fear (as in the thing that results in Shaken, Frightened of Panckied conditions) is an attack.

(If you have to make a saving throw (or no saving throw is allowed), that's pretty much a good definition of an attack, like any other effect that causes a condition. In any case, I think it would be hard if not impossible, to find any reference to fear in the rules that is not categorised as an attack. (Shadow Well specifically requires a Will save verses becoming frightened, which is about as clear an indicator to me as an attack as can be. Unless someone wants to argue a spell that transports someone (unwillingly) to another plane is a spell that doesn't qualify for an attack, that you could cast, e.g. while under the effect of Sanctuary?)

On top of that, the bolded line Person_Man also includes Undead being immune to morale effects, which is pretty much the definition of fear.

So I think the rules are emphatic about Undead being immune to fear.



This doesn't mean Undead (or arguably, Paladins) can't get scared on an emotional (i.e. roleplaying level); but they cannot be affected by induced Fear, the specific condition as described in the rules. Basically, they don't get scared unless the player or DM makes a roleplaying decision that they do. So, your DM might allow you to Batman-style psyche out an Undead creature or something, but it would have to be something based entirely on a roleplaying perspective; mechanically, Undead cannot be affected by fear.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would RP explain it as undead don't have functioning brains. They think (those that do think) through magic. Thus they can decide to be cautious and they can wish to not die, but the strong emotions that go with those feeling in people are simply not there, nor are the physical effects of fear. Undead do not tremble, they do not panic, they do not soil themselves. They are undead, the pale imitation of life by the powers of negative energy. Thier emotions are likewise pale imitations of real emotions.

I am running an undead focused game, so I have thought about this in depth.

[Aotrs Commander]

They are undead, the pale imitation of life by the powers of negative energy. Thier emotions are likewise pale imitations of real emotions.

On behalf of my fellow Undead everywhere, I feel I must respond with:

HEY!

You mean the living are pale imitations of Undead powered by positive energy and whose crude fleshy sacs are incapable of the pure, unsullied thought and emotion only attainable when such petty mortal limitations are cast aside!

...

I'll give you pale imitations mutter mutter lousy livist mortals grumble flay your soul gripe see how real this wrath is mumble mumble

...

...

Well, except for Vampires, who are totally what you just said.

[Zanticor]

All right I give in. But still I think that means the shadow well spell should be altered to say illusion (shadow), partially mind-affecting. Do you agree?

[Aotrs Commander]

All right I give in. But still I think that means the shadow well spell should be altered to say illusion (shadow), partially mind-affecting. Do you agree?

You can't really have a partial subtype. I'd grant you a line added to the description that clarifies the frightened effect is mind-affecting would be beneficial.



Incidently, Zanticor, I just realised why your name (and avatar) seemed vaguely familar. You're looking quite well for a person who I last saw being viciously mauled to death by my six PCs a few weeks ago. Nice to see you've made a full recovery... Sorry about that, though. I did try, really I did, but that tripping paladin is just a right bugger to deal with and you did fail that save when ninja/rogue/invisible blade fired that paralysation arrow...

[Person_Man]

All right I give in. But still I think that means the shadow well spell should be altered to say illusion (shadow), partially mind-affecting. Do you agree?

No. It means you should memorize other spells or buy a wand or staff. In many ways combat in D&D is an elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors. Undead are rocks. Mind Affecting Attacks (and most status effects in general) are scissors. Instead of trying to lawyer your way out of the definitions (Is iron ore really a rock? Are kitchen shears really scissors?) go find some paper.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, I stand corrected.

I still think it's silly.

[Hurlbut]

Well, I stand corrected.

I still think it's silly.

The undead are supposed to cause fear in the living, not be 'afraid'

[Aotrs Commander]

No. It means you should memorize other spells or buy a wand or staff. In many ways combat in D&D is an elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors. Undead are rocks. Mind Affecting Attacks (and most status effects in general) are scissors. Instead of trying to lawyer your way out of the definitions (Is iron ore really a rock? Are kitchen shears really scissors?) go find some paper.

To be fair, an illusionist is moderately hosed in that department, since they are specialist scissor users...



Incidently, as a Lich myself, and also someone who has had the misfortune to be linked to the German opening to Naruto once, I can categorically state that Undead are not totally immune to fear and horror. *shudder*

[Maryring]

The illusionist is better of than the enchanter, since she can get Shadow Paper.

[Person_Man]

To be fair, an illusionist is moderately hosed in that department, since they are specialist scissor users...

Not so. Illusionists are Tier 1 casters. They are amazing at defeating everyone who isn't immune. Against those who are immune, they still have a vast number of spells and spell trigger items at their disposal. Buffs, Summons, No Save magic, Scry and Die, etc. For whatever foe you are facing, you can find a spell to defeat them. Your only issue is if you ONLY memorize Illusion spells and don't bother to buy magic items to cover your weaknesses. But that's not an issue with the Illusionist, that's an issue with the player's choices.

[Zanticor]

On the stone, paper, scissor dilemma. No need for lawyering. Most illusions are not mind-affecting and while its true that our enchanter was totally useless on the battlefield with all those undead, my shadow well actually saved the day without needing a fear add-on. The ghost was removed, we got to heal up and rebuff and when the unafraid ghost returned from his little vacation on my favourite plane, he was low in the initiative order and my friends did the rest.

Then to the question: Didn't I just slay you with my paladin? Well liches using paladins to slay Mind Flayer clerics should be used to some tricks. Didn't I fly with righteous might up? Then my death was probably an exaggeration. Or maybe a mind-affecting illusion?
I'm right now rebuilding Glasspool city from the last sacking and thinking of becoming an alhoon. How is lichdom working-out for you dear Aotrs? Do you still enjoy brains or is that something you now leave for you zombie friends?

[Aotrs Commander]

Then to the question: Didn't I just slay you with my paladin? Well liches using paladins to slay Mind Flayer clerics should be used to some tricks. Didn't I fly with righteous might up? Then my death was probably an exaggeration. Or maybe a mind-affecting illusion?
I'm right now rebuilding Glasspool city from the last sacking and thinking of becoming an alhoon. How is lichdom working-out for you dear Aotrs? Do you still enjoy brains or is that something you now leave for you zombie friends?

I say "my" in the loosest possible sense... (as in "the people whose activities were following" rather than the possessive.) The Army Of The Red Spear does not, of course, use paladins, as they kind of take the whole Evil thing rather poorly. (Well, unless we can unwittingly use them to do some of our dirty work.)

To be fair, to you, you were ambushed horribly by the adventurers inside your lair, and the little sods could fly as well. Still, you did better than than unfortunate Shadow Dragon...

I was not an illithid before death (I'd hesitate to say I was ever...human...), so brains were never really my thing. Nevertheless, I can strongly recommend lichdom, it's awesome (whether you become a phylactery-ound lich or a Spirit-bound like msyelf). There are no downsides, seriously, and the extra clarity you get without being hampered by biology is wonderful!

[Malbordeus]

there are some spells that specificly can make undead afraid. Chill Touch and Graveborn Touch? possibly not the second, its late and my eyes dont work, much less my brain.
or more specificly the spells make them flee "as if Panicked" for a bit. this leads to the idea that maybe a Chain Chill touch could make a room of zombies go mental amongst other things, and opens the possibility of spells that could be designed specificly for the purpose of hurting your DM's brain... i mean making undead run.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Not so. Illusionists are Tier 1 casters. They are amazing at defeating everyone who isn't immune. Against those who are immune, they still have a vast number of spells and spell trigger items at their disposal. Buffs, Summons, No Save magic, Scry and Die, etc. For whatever foe you are facing, you can find a spell to defeat them. Your only issue is if you ONLY memorize Illusion spells and don't bother to buy magic items to cover your weaknesses. But that's not an issue with the Illusionist, that's an issue with the player's choices.

Well said I'm currently playing an illusionist, even worse a shadowgnome killer, normally I wouldn't do such a character but my group said psions were more powerful then wizards so naturally I had to prove them wrong.