Dungeons and Dead Dragons

[Beelzebub1111]

In my second ed. game we seem to have a reputation that...well...most dragons we come across seem to die die. The only two we haven't killed are a Great Wyrm white and a Great Wyrm Black dragon. All others (including a pair of Adult Reds at the same time, A shadow dragon of indeterminate age, A very old red dragon, a Mature adult blue, a young adult white, and more)

In the 3.5 game that I run, I'm about to have a dragon encounter. I'm not sure that they realize how screwed they are for this fight, and I'm worried they'll think that it's the same crap and they can go in there with their swords and bows, thinking it'll be the same ballgame.

Any idea on how I can convey the difference in dragons between editions?

[Pisha]

Not to point out the obvious, but have you tried sitting down with one or more players outside of game and just explaining that the dragons in this edition are much more powerful in relation to the party than they're used to? You don't have to go into detail, just let them know not to expect it to be as easy as it was before.

(Our 3.5 party is in epic levels now, and we STILL sit up and pay attention when a dragon shows up!)

[Lysander]

Have an old villager describe how the dragon decimated an army and then demanded tribute from several towns. He can explain legends of its magical power, and how it defeated various renowned heroes that went up against it in the past.

[Duke of URL]

Bones. Lots of bones. Bones of groups of monsters the party would be hard-pressed to fight themselves.

If they seem determined to fight anyway, set it up so that they have an escape route where the dragon can't follow (at least, not easily enough to bother), so that when they're facing a TPK, they might take the hint to RUN!

[Saph]

Have an old villager describe how the dragon decimated an army and then demanded tribute from several towns. He can explain legends of its magical power, and how it defeated various renowned heroes that went up against it in the past.

Players hear: "blah blah blah tribute blah blah magical power blah blah. Woo, loot and XP!"

[Kaje]

Have them fight the dragon. It's their fault if they don't pay attention and make dumb assumptions.

[Thrawn183]

Actually, I'd take the stories and combine them with the bones. Have an encounter before the dragon, or even several. Have them find the bones of adventurers who have tried to kill the dragon previously still with all their magical equipment (better than the party's). It's their loot from all the encounters previously, but should also spell out that other adventurers with this equipment weren't good enough. Maybe they should come back later.

[AmberVael]

Pick out someone that they really respect in terms of power, hopefully an NPC, and have the dragon beat the snot out of them. That might get them to pay attention.

You could throw a weaker dragon against them first, have it give them a fairly hard time, and then have the real dragon show up in a blaze of glory once they defeat the first one. Not so much 'I am the real power behind this' as 'and that was just a warm up, now here is the real deal, beware.'

[Beelzebub1111]

Not to point out the obvious, but have you tried sitting down with one or more players outside of game and just explaining that the dragons in this edition are much more powerful in relation to the party than they're used to? You don't have to go into detail, just let them know not to expect it to be as easy as it was before.

Wouldn't be coming to you guys if I didn't try that already. I got "Yeah" "Sure" "Whatever" "I'll bet" and the like.

Some circumstances for the encounter:
Kobold village nestled in the mountains pays tribute to "Blackhorns" who is an adult white dragon (the APL is six so I figure if they're smart it'll make a good boss encounter).

Pick out someone that they really respect in terms of power, hopefully an NPC, and have the dragon beat the snot out of them. That might get them to pay attention.

If they actually did respect anyone in terms of power, that would be great. (they seem to be under the impression that they are the baddest dudes in the world. Partially why I want this encounter, but I want to teach them a lesson in humility not destroy them)

You could throw a weaker dragon against them first, have it give them a fairly hard time, and then have the real dragon show up in a blaze of glory once they defeat the first one. Not so much 'I am the real power behind this' as 'and that was just a warm up, now here is the real deal, beware.'

That's not a bad idea. I'll consider that.

[Gan The Grey]

Honestly? I've found that babying my players tends to ruin games in the long run. You warned them, they ignored you. Their bad when things don't go their way. A good, solid loss after ample warning will teach them to respect their opponents in the long run.

Or, they'll get all pissy and immature about it. Could go either way. I still support beating the snot out of them for the sake of future sessions. Worked for my players.

[Pisha]

Ah. Well, fair enough.

I remember in our campaign, when we'd just defeated one big boss, our GM introduced the next one by having him drop by (into our heavily-defended stronghold), mockingly congratulate us, turn about half of us into frogs with a wave of his hand, and bamf out again. It was both humiliating and memorable, and really drove home the point that this guy was gonna be out of our league for at LEAST a few more levels!

Could you do something like that? Have the dragon find out that these adventurers are gunning for it, show up to mock them, and hit them with some harmless but humiliating display of power to let them know they're outclassed? (IIRC, white dragons can do this REALLY annoying ice hemisphere thingie that would fit the bill perfectly.) Done right it should irritate them enough that they really WANT to take down this dragon, but also scare them enough that they'll understand how prepared they'll have to be.

[Douglas]

That's not a bad idea. I'll consider that.

If you do that, make sure you set it up. If it just comes out of the blue, one dragon down and a new one appears without the players expecting it, they won't think "oh crap, he really meant it about this thing's power"; no, they'll think "he overestimated his monster and is pulling this upgrade out of his ass to save face." This would most likely lead to pissed off players feeling their accomplishment was negated by DM fiat rather than properly impressed and intimidated players who now take dragons seriously.

You could make it a parent/child pair with the child serving as the warmup, and that could work pretty well, but make certain that the party gets news and rumors about there being two dragons, one more powerful than the other, before they encounter either of them. If the party knows going in that there are two dragons of differing power, then the reveal of "this was the weak one" should have the desired effect - assuming that the weak one really does give them a suitably hard time.

[Crow]

Have this dragon make full use of it's spellcasting abilities, and have it pick "batman" wizard spells. Disable and debuff the party while summoned minions beat the snot out of them. Meanwhile, the dragon sits back and laughs!

[AmberVael]

*snip advice*

Yeah, I definitely do agree with douglas here. Don't pull it out of nowhere- even if they don't know about the smaller dragon until it shows up, make it obvious that it isn't the dragon they've heard of, or at least suspicious. Maybe it is notably smaller or missing some defining feature- heck, maybe even a different color.

[FelixG]

You could also have it give a show of power, have it use one of its spells, something sufficiently impressive on the environment in anger, you could not use the spell up as its just a thematic thing but it would help set the mood for the fight and make sure the players are on their toes.

[true_shinken]

Yeah, I definitely do agree with douglas here. Don't pull it out of nowhere- even if they don't know about the smaller dragon until it shows up, make it obvious that it isn't the dragon they've heard of, or at least suspicious. Maybe it is notably smaller or missing some defining feature- heck, maybe even a different color.

Better yet - have it be a polymorphed kobold. "If a fake can do this... imagine the real thing?!"

[FelixG]

Better yet - have it be a polymorphed kobold. "If a fake can do this... imagine the real thing?!"

Now heres a cruel idea, having a group who underestimates dragons as it is try to fight one while dealing with kobold traps and minions...painful.

[kamikasei]

If they actually did respect anyone in terms of power, that would be great. (they seem to be under the impression that they are the baddest dudes in the world. Partially why I want this encounter, but I want to teach them a lesson in humility not destroy them)

You could try to do both. Have the dragon beat the tar out of them; next thing, they wake up revived by the dragon to perform some task for it.

The tricky thing with a scenario like that is that it will likely really chafe with the players to be forced in to a quest like that - especially for the sort of players who dismiss the threat posed by elder dragons. One possibility would be to have the dragon take a very hands-off approach. When they wake up, they're somewhere else entirely, far away from the dragon. It's wreaked some havoc and left them in place to take the fall for it (with a gloating note to that effect that self-destructs once they read it; or, work the implication that their circumstances benefit the dragon in some way in to the exposition). Say, the dragon wanted two hostile nations both weakened, so it's staged a raid against one and made it look like the PCs did it on behalf of the other, with the result that they go to war and the high-level party have to fight their way out against both sides, adding to the chaos. This leaves the PCs entirely free to choose their course of action, and even lets them indulge their likely urge to go back and murderize the dragon some, now that they understand how tough it is and once they can actually get that far.

(Problem: this plot sketch falls apart if the PCs have access to long-distance teleportation.)

[Diarmuid]

I agree with the sentiment that you have given them ample warning. If they decide to completely ignore it...they should reap the consequences.

[Esser-Z]

Have the dragon decide it's more fun to play with them than kill them.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ah. Well, fair enough.

I remember in our campaign, when we'd just defeated one big boss, our GM introduced the next one by having him drop by (into our heavily-defended stronghold), mockingly congratulate us, turn about half of us into frogs with a wave of his hand, and bamf out again. It was both humiliating and memorable, and really drove home the point that this guy was gonna be out of our league for at LEAST a few more levels!

Could you do something like that? Have the dragon find out that these adventurers are gunning for it, show up to mock them, and hit them with some harmless but humiliating display of power to let them know they're outclassed? (IIRC, white dragons can do this REALLY annoying ice hemisphere thingie that would fit the bill perfectly.) Done right it should irritate them enough that they really WANT to take down this dragon, but also scare them enough that they'll understand how prepared they'll have to be.

Great idea.

[KillianHawkeye]

Have this dragon make full use of it's spellcasting abilities, and have it pick "batman" wizard spells. Disable and debuff the party while summoned minions beat the snot out of them. Meanwhile, the dragon sits back and laughs!

You could also have it give a show of power, have it use one of its spells, something sufficiently impressive on the environment in anger, you could not use the spell up as its just a thematic thing but it would help set the mood for the fight and make sure the players are on their toes.

Unfortunately,

"Blackhorns" who is an adult white dragon

An adult white dragon can only cast 1st level spells. That's not too impressive for 6th level PCs who've been doing that for 5 levels already.

[Diarmuid]

Mage Armor is a 1st level spell and will increase that dragon's AC into possibly almost unhittable regions. Most lvl 6's arent hitting 30 with any regularity.

And with the 18 SR, a 12 or better is less than 50% chance to land spells. I would think an adult white using any modicum of intelligence is going to wipe the floor with a group of lvl 6's.

Granted, an adult is CR11, and thus should mop the floor with a party of 6's.

So why are you throwing an 11 at a party of 6's?

[herrhauptmann]

Pick out someone that they really respect in terms of power, hopefully an NPC, and have the dragon beat the snot out of them. That might get them to pay attention.

You could throw a weaker dragon against them first, have it give them a fairly hard time, and then have the real dragon show up in a blaze of glory once they defeat the first one. Not so much 'I am the real power behind this' as 'and that was just a warm up, now here is the real deal, beware.'

Idea A) I'm always against introducing a powerful npc just for the worf effect. Too much of that, and they won't think too highly of the creatures/characters you describe as 'very powerful'. Which is part of the problem with dragons. Also, a great deal of the 'powerful' characters they run into, tend to be my old characters, or those my friends played. Makes it easier to adlib the persons personality/actions, as opposed to getting a quest from Mordenkainen/Elminster or some king the setting tells me is alive in this timeperiod.
Idea B) Make sure to use some descriptive text if you introduce a weaker dragon whose purpose is to die, but put some hurting on the PCs. "As you march into the lair, the main entrance looks wide enough for a dozen knights to ride abreast, and there's some deep gouges where something very big has scraped against the rock, on both sides of the entrance." Then when they encounter a dragon not much bigger than a warhorse who nearly kills them all, they might wonder why there seemed to be so many marks that look like they were left by something that was much bigger.
Or end the session with them killing the dragon and starting the lair looting. Say you need time to calculate the XP/roll the random loot. However, before they can really get to the looting, they're interupted by an angry roar from the skies. "The sheer rage present is enough to cause physical pain to any listeners, and crack the rocks in half." Then as they look up, they see a dragon that is literally gargantuan in size.

Idea C) Do tuckers kobolds, but with whitespawn sneaks or similar.

[Inhuman Bot]

Have them fight the dragon. It's their fault if they don't pay attention and make dumb assumptions.

Agreed. Just because something has never been a threat before doesn't meant they shouldn't assume it won't be a threat despite appearing identical to the non-threatening creature they fought before?

[Kaww]

Wouldn't be coming to you guys if I didn't try that already. I got "Yeah" "Sure" "Whatever" "I'll bet" and the like.

Have them fight the dragon. It's their fault if they don't pay attention and make dumb assumptions.

Players hear: "blah blah blah tribute blah blah magical power blah blah. Woo, loot and XP!"

For starters: they should be entitled to ingame knowledge checks (allow arcana, history, local, nature), which you roll in secret. If they roll good rolls say this *********** is gonna kill you.

If they stay cocky, and ignore villagers warnings and stories of loot have the ************ kill their cocky asses.

[Coidzor]

Or a combination of the evidence of the dragon being a bad guy and the loot of past challengers being left as evidence of its inefficacy: animated skeltons/bone creatures/other undead of nasty things killed by the dragon set up as guards/sentries/walls

[Chrono22]

If it's of at least great wyrm status, then it will probably know the party is preparing to attack it in advance. Having some spies in the surrounding communities report back to it with information about anyone that seems suspicious, is a cheap and very effective means of defense.

At that point... the dragon can just wait until night, and launch an attack against the party in town. Or it can lie in wait, and prepare its traps.

Really, dragons already have a mechanical edge... but played with any sense, they can become invincible.

Have the party learn the truth about dragons the hard way- by being killed and eaten.

[Crow]

If it's of at least great wyrm status, then it will probably know the party is preparing to attack it in advance. Having some spies in the surrounding communities report back to it with information about anyone that seems suspicious, is a cheap and very effective means of defense.

At that point... the dragon can just wait until night, and launch an attack against the party in town. Or it can lie in wait, and prepare its traps.

Really, dragons already have a mechanical edge... but played with any sense, they can become invincible.

Have the party learn the truth about dragons the hard way- by being killed and eaten.

After the dragon demolishes a good portion of the town during it's attack on the players, any of them who survive can also deal with the animosity of the townsfolk for "bringing the dragon down on them".

Killing them and eating them is the only way to make them respect dragons. In my experience, nothing short of that works.

[Beelzebub1111]

Granted, an adult is CR11, and thus should mop the floor with a party of 6's.

So why are you throwing an 11 at a party of 6's?

CR10, And I'm trying to use the propper distribution of encounter difficulty (table 3-2 of DMG) He's in that 5% or 15% region, right on the line there.