[3.5/Pathfinder] Intelligence Increases and Skill Points

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is a simple question, but what happens when you increase your intelligence and get extra skill points as you level up? I think I remember reading somewhere that if you want to take a new skill, you need to plug 4 skill points into it immediately, essentially meaning that you need to wait 4 levels after the Intelligence increase to get the skill, but I'm not sure if that's true.

The character I'm building (level 10), started with an Intelligence of 15, thus giving him two bonus skill points, but since I'm going to plug the two attribute increases he gets into Intelligence to make it 17. How do I distribute his skill points then?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

This is a simple question, but what happens when you increase your intelligence and get extra skill points as you level up?

You get extra skill points from the level you increase your Intelligence and every level thereafter.

I think I remember reading somewhere that if you want to take a new skill, you need to plug 4 skill points into it immediately, essentially meaning that you need to wait 4 levels after the Intelligence increase to get the skill, but I'm not sure if that's true.

That is very, very wrong. You can have less than 4 ranks in any skill.

The character I'm building (level 10), started with an Intelligence of 15, thus giving him two bonus skill points, but since I'm going to plug the two attribute increases he gets into Intelligence to make it 17. How do I distribute his skill points then?

You mean his 4th and 8th level increases are going into Int? Well, you get +2 skill points from Int for levels 1—3. At level 4, your 16 Int will give you a further bonus skill point. From level 4 and on, you will get that extra skill point.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, thank you. I hope I have enough points for the different Craft and Profession stuff I want for him.

[Rixx]

Remember, in Pathfinder, you retroactively get skill points from intelligence increases (like retroactive HP from Con increases)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Wow. Never noticed that.

That’s… wierd, in-character.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Remember, in Pathfinder, you retroactively get skill points from intelligence increases (like retroactive HP from Con increases)

So I just put in the maximum amount for the new skill? That's excellent!

[Aotrs Commander]

Wow. Never noticed that.

That’s… wierd, in-character.

It's a concession to the fact that them being non-retroactive in 3.5 was a PAIN-IN-THE-ARSE, especially from the perspective of a DM generating NPC wizards. Having to fiddle about working out what skills a wizard had at every four levels was increeeeedibly irritating. It's certainly an abtracted element that I for one (normally being a simulationist/world-logic-consistency freak) am whole-heartedly prepared to accept. Ditto for Pathfinder's ditching of synergy bonuses, from a long-suffering DM's perspective.

So I just put in the maximum amount for the new skill? That's excellent!

If you're playing Pathfinder, yep. (If not enjoy the extra skill points when you level up!)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's kind of sad that even with the bonus points I still don't have enough for the skills I want. I'm playing a rogue, but once I have all the essential rogue skills like Disable Device and whatnot, that doesn't leave room for the following:

Craft (carpentry)
Craft (stonemasonry)
Knowledge (engineering)
Profession (architect)
Profession (engineer)

I'm basically trying to create a character who, should the PCs obtain control of some sort of merchant company or become the sovereigns of a territory or something, this guy will be able to help them get the most out of it. I've been playing too many video games that take this kind of tack. Both Neverwinter Nights 2 and Dragon Age and their expansions put political/mercantile power in the hands of the PCs, and I've grown quite fond of that sort of thing. The whole constuction-based skills would be so I could fortify any castles we might get or so I can construct trading posts in cities, or even just build an entire freakin' village should the need arise.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's kind of sad that even with the bonus points I still don't have enough for the skills I want. I'm playing a rogue, but once I have all the essential rogue skills like Disable Device and whatnot, that doesn't leave room for the following:

Craft (carpentry)
Craft (stonemasonry)
Knowledge (engineering)
Profession (architect)
Profession (engineer)

I'm basically trying to create a character who, should the PCs obtain control of some sort of merchant company or become the sovereigns of a territory or something, this guy will be able to help them get the most out of it. I've been playing too many video games that take this kind of tack. Both Neverwinter Nights 2 and Dragon Age and their expansions put political/mercantile power in the hands of the PCs, and I've grown quite fond of that sort of thing. The whole constuction-based skills would be so I could fortify any castles we might get or so I can construct trading posts in cities, or even just build an entire freakin' village should the need arise.

Well, at level 10, that'd give you 10 skill points. You could max out one of those, or, as those are skills the probably don't need to be maxed out, dip a bit into each (say, 3,3,2,1,1 or even 2,2,2,2,2). With the extra +3 from being a trained skill (and I'm making the assumption that most of those save maybe the knowledge skill are going to be class skills), that'd give you +6,+6,+5,+4,+4 or 5 x +5) plus stats. Which is considerably better than 3.5's whole extra skill point! I wouldn't have thought you'd have needed them all to be maxed out anyway, as depending on your game world, you probably aren't gong to have to make that many opposed checks with maxed-out NPC 10th level merchnats, an even a relatively light investment should give you a solid enough grounding (provided your DM is not unreasonable about it). I'd have guessed that unless your game world is heavily variant, you wouldn't find millions of merchants and whatnot above about level 5 or 6. The odd one, yes, but not the majority.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, at level 10, that'd give you 10 skill points. You could max out one of those, or, as those are skills the probably don't need to be maxed out, dip a bit into each (say, 3,3,2,1,1 or even 2,2,2,2,2). With the extra +3 from being a trained skill (and I'm making the assumption that most of those save maybe the knowledge skill are going to be class skills), that'd give you +6,+6,+5,+4,+4 or 5 x +5) plus stats. Which is considerably better than 3.5's whole extra skill point! I wouldn't have thought you'd have needed them all to be maxed out anyway, as depending on your game world, you probably aren't gong to have to make that many opposed checks with maxed-out NPC 10th level merchnats, an even a relatively light investment should give you a solid enough grounding (provided your DM is not unreasonable about it). I'd have guessed that unless your game world is heavily variant, you wouldn't find millions of merchants and whatnot above about level 5 or 6. The odd one, yes, but not the majority.

You misunderstand. I've already picked out the following skills:

Appraise (Can't do finances without this!)
Bluff (For haggling purposes. Besides, as a rogue people will expect me to have this.)
Diplomacy (This is all important whether running the politics of a kingdom or the business of a mercantile venture.)
Disable Device (This is another one of those "essential" rogue skills. If I didn't take this, someone might hit me.)
Intimidate (Rounding out the social skills, plus giving me an edge in negotiations with people who aren't likely to care about honeyed words.)
Knowledge (local) (For knowing various trade laws and exchange rates, as well as the kind of mineral and lumber-based wealth of territories.)
Profession (merchant) (Even if I can't physically build a house myself, I can still run a successful business.)
Sense Motive (A successful merchant is one who can figure out when he's being swindled.)
Sleight of Hand (Another "essential" rogue skill that the party will think I have, and that when they meet me the first people I'll use it on is them.)
Stealth (Once again, an "essential" skill that you need to have to be a rogue. Even if I'm not the thieving type it'll at least provide some utility for scouting, and avoiding trouble, since I'm not much of a warrior all things considered).

I mentioned those other skills because there wasn't any room left after the upgrade.

[Runeclaw]

You should probably decide whether you're more interested in playing an Adventurer or a construction worker, and allocate your skills appropriately. Not even rogues can be good at everything.

Alternatively, you probably can be skilled in ALL those things - just no absolutely expert in all of them. You could put a rank or two in each for the jack of all trades master of none type.

[Aotrs Commander]

You misunderstand. I've already picked out the following skills:I mentioned those other skills because there wasn't any room left after the upgrade.

Ah. Yes. Well. Fair enough. You're, as they say, kind of buggered in that department then! Still, you can prbably afford to drop a point or few into those as you level up, and even a single point here and there will make a fairly big difference.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You should probably decide whether you're more interested in playing an Adventurer or a construction worker, and allocate your skills appropriately. Not even rogues can be good at everything.

Alternatively, you probably can be skilled in ALL those things - just no absolutely expert in all of them. You could put a rank or two in each for the jack of all trades master of none type.

That's the thing. I want to be a construction worker/architect/merchant/governor/engineer, basically the kind of guy who can ace the An Entrepreneur Is You portions of a potential D&D game, but that would most likely make me useless to the party. What good's a rogue who can't pick pockets and break locks and search for hidden trinkets?

[Akal Saris]

Well, you know your campaigns best. If the DM never ever puts in secret doors or traps (and one of my DMs has never done so in 5-6 years of DMing), what is the use of Search? If he constantly calls for Spot checks but even straight 5's and 11's will "Spot" what he wanted you to see in game, why take ranks in spot?

I doubt Knowledge (Local) will require more than 1 rank, the same goes for Profession (Merchant), since most of being a merchant is haggling with sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy. Profession (Engineering) on the other hand might be crucial to your build, and probably covers (architect) and the general craft skills to a decent extent as well.

Also, see if the other PCs can fill any holes in your skills with theirs. If you have a bard, you probably don't need Bluff, Diplomacy, AND Intimidate.

[Thefurmonger]

Dont forget that in Pathfinder the +Int items come with skills built in too.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

New question, this time concerning a different character.

What happens when you multiclass into a class or prestige class that gives fewer skill points than the one you already had. I'm making a cavalier/bard/battle herald, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with the skills, given that he'll have five levels of bard, which is 6 + Int, and the other classes are 4 + Int. Do I just pick two extra skills and stop boosting them when I'm in a 4 + Int class?

[ffone]

Wow. Never noticed that.

That’s… wierd, in-character.

Not necessarily. Every character suddenly gets more skill points when they level. These characters just happen to get 'extra' on that level up.