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Thread: Martial study : Spells?
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2010-10-14, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Martial study : Spells?
::Edit:: Due to the original discussion ending faster and with a lot less interest than I thought, I propose a change of focus for this thread, along the same topic lines -
Now, this may be a little off, given that I'm only familiar with the ToB through these forums, but I had an idea last night. It is my understanding that Martial Study can be taken (as a Fighter feat, no less), and gives you access to one maneuver, with an initiator level of 1/2 your non-initiator classes, plus your initiator classes themselves, yes?
Okay - and there is also the .. was it called Arcane Swordsage? The one that got to choose spells instead of maneuvers, which I know, it's kind of frowned upon in terms of balance. But is there anything stopping a player, in a game that allows the Arcane Swordsage, from taking Martial Study and learning spells, since the AS can learn them as maneuvers?Last edited by Quietus; 2010-10-14 at 09:24 AM.
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2010-10-14, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2010-10-14, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-14, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Hmm...No Heroism loops then. Too bad, using a fighter feat to aquire Martial Study, then resting and repeating is a great way to expand your repotoir for a time.
Probably a good thing they work like regular spells then.
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2010-10-14, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Ah. Well, that makes a bit more sense, I suppose. So, slight focus shift, then - would allowing noncasters to pick up spells with feats, using the same outline as Martial Study (1/2 noncasting classes = caster level, so you're looking at 3rd level spells around level 10, 1/encounter) be terribly broken, in your opinion? I personally don't see a lot of issue with it, but I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts.
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2010-10-14, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-14, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Personally I wouldn't mind, as most non-casting classes are focused on physical attributes mostly anyway a little bit of mental stuff in there wouldn't be bad. A Fighter with Int 13 and a single 3rd-level spell 1/encounter would be a little refreshing.
...pun not(?) intended.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2010-10-14, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
What if it didn't require a certain mental capacity, or could be chosen by the player when they took the ability? Say, you could take a spell from any spell list, but you used that class's casting stat to determine if you could cast it, and how strong the DC was if applicable? Or even if it didn't rely on any mental capacity at all, since you're already spending a feat on it?
Alternatively, what about if you got half character level = caster level, unless you had the appropriate casting stat high enough to cast the spell normally, then got full caster level? There are quite a few spells that would be worthless if your caster level wasn't at least close to your character level.Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
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2010-10-14, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
As there are quite a few manuevers that are worthless if your ranks in concentration or jump or balance or tumble are low. It becomes a matter of selection.
Myself, I'd go with caster level = 1/2 character leve, any spell list, must have the appropriate casting stat, usable once per encounter or refreshed with 10 minutes rest. And I'd allow using practiced spellcaster along with the feat.
That would encourage people to get general utility spells and buffs.Inner fear is your only enemy.
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2010-10-14, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Mm, true... I guess you wouldn't take that one where concentration check = damage if you didn't have a high concentration check. It would certainly be nice to be able to drop a feat - even a Fighter feat! - to pick up Fly at level 10, I'd think.
.. And people say ToB is too anime. XDPokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
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2010-10-14, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Terribly broken, sadly.
1.Giving all casters miracle 1/encounter for a feat-cost is ridiculous on an order of magnitude that *should* be visible to everyone reading this post.
2.Typically(I'll grant that you didn't specify this) when individual spells are handed out, they're spell-like abilities, and if that's how this is implemented, that's *ANOTHER* can of worms.
3.The balance on this just makes casters *more* powerful than melee, as melee will pick up 1/encounter emergency spells while casters will pick up a spammable spell and just prepare the emergency spell instead.
Its frowned upon because:
1.It was poorly thought-out as printed.
2.It wasn't fleshed out, so its not even claimed as balanced in ToB.
3.It is *NOT* in the rules. Its in an adaptation section.
4.Ignoring all of the above, it is not balanced.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-10-14, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.
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2010-10-14, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-10-14, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
*Shrugs* Perhaps. But casters can pick up the Extra Slot feat or whatever to be able to prepare another spell per day anyhow... so what would the difference be, exactly? Even if Extra Slot only allows one spell level below your max, it can be used for any spell; This is more limited in that you pick one. Admittedly it's per encounter, but casters will only get one chance, ever, to pick this up for a 9th level spell anyway.. or you could simply make it outright that the caster level for these is always 1/2 character level, period, keeping it balanced for everyone rather than making it "extra slot on steroids" for casters.
Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.
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2010-10-14, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Yeah. Let's see:
3.The melee/caster issue in choices is still a problem.
4.Metamagic?!?
5.There's always the non-obvious that comes with giving carte blanche access to areas that were not meant to have such access in *ways* that people were not meant to have access to them.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-10-14, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Fighting types take Wraithstrike (second level spell) at 6th level?
Not too bad.
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2010-10-14, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Possibly fourth, if we use Martial Study as the base, as it's a Fighter feat. Wraithstrike is a swift-cast, one-round duration right? I see no major issue with this, outside of possible ubercharger abuse.. but then the abuse is in the ubercharging, the spell is just a minor add-on to that.
I'm not sure what you mean by 3).
4) If someone wants to pick up a Metamagic feat before learning a spell, so they can apply that feat to that spell... more power to them?
5) This I acknowledge, but that's the bane of new material everywhere.Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
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2010-10-14, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Casters will get more mileage out of this extra casting per/day slot by virtue of having a higher CL, much like ToB classes get some extra mileage out of martial study than non ToB classes. You could work around it-ish by simply globally declaring that the feat can only get you a spell as if your caster level were 1/2 your total level.
BEEP.
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2010-10-14, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Yeah, that came up a bit earlier, and I agree - in this case, caster level = 1/2 character level globally is a better way to go about this. Otherwise you'd have every Wizard taking their level 18 feat as Martial Study : Time Stop, since that has a use in every encounter, ever. Or maybe Foresight, which would come in at level 15, 'cause "per encounter" is narrowed down to "every 5-10 minutes outside combat", and that's.. well, it's Foresight all day for one feat.
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2010-10-14, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-14, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Actually, with regard to my last post there.. I'm starting to think. Any spell with a duration of 10 minutes/level could effectively be permanent with this feat, casting it every few minutes. Maybe a /day limit would be better, though it WOULD be nice for a Fighter at level 6 (and yes, I was mistaken earlier in correcting that to level 4) to be able to pick up See Invisibility, then Fly at level 10. The problem comes in that anything with a duration greater than a minute/level - and even those, after a certain point - become "Use one standard action every five minutes to keep permanent". Mage Armor, See Invisibility, Water Breathing, all would effectively become all-day, if they were per encounter. I'm thinking either a 1/day or 3/day limit would be better, in this case. If 1/day, it might be worthwhile to give full caster level, though, to make it have worthwhile oomph for that one time in a day you get to use it.
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2010-10-14, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Your math doesn't hold. Only Martial adepts gain at 1:1, everyone one else is 1:2.
So you need to reach 3rd Initator level to qualify for a 2nd level maneuver/spell..
1/2x 6= 3 (3 is the minimum for 2nd level stuff).
So yes, Quietus, there is a Santa Claus...I mean it is 6th level to grab a 2nd level spell.Last edited by Starbuck_II; 2010-10-14 at 11:42 AM.
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2010-10-14, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Last edited by Quietus; 2010-10-14 at 11:42 AM.
Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.
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2010-10-14, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
I see no problem at all with letting someone pick up an extra (fixed, static) spell per day, off any list, cast at 1/2 character level. That sounds like a fine homebrew feat.
Making it 1/encounter is ridiculously broken.
The difference between spells and maneuvers is that spells are balanced (poorly, but balanced) based on a per day availability. You only get so many per day. Maneuvers are balanced based on being able to be used once (or more) per encounter - literally the strongest maneuvers available - the ones that are only supposed to be available to 17th level characters of specific classes - are roughly as powerful as low-end 6th level spells - compare Harm with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Harm has a saving throw, Strike of Perfect Clarity has a to-hit roll, but they are effectively identical, except that the Maneuver will probably deal less damage on average. You can look at every 9th level maneuver (except Tornado Throw) and find a spell of 6th level or lower (sometimes much lower) that does the same thing.
But Maneuvers are considdered to be balanced and useful, because you can use them at least once per fight. And spells are considdered (on the whole) to be balanced and powerful while being used once per day.
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2010-10-14, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
To add another example, one already used: Emerald Razor (which requires you to have a maneuver from the same school to even pick up) is a 2nd level maneuver where you make a single melee attack as a touch attack with Standard Action.
Wraithstrike is swift action 2nd level spell that makes all your melee attacks touch attacks for the whole round.
So yeah, there's a difference.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-10-14, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
And this is where my utter lack of detail-level knowledge with the ToB bites me in the ass. =P
Seems that allowing spells to be bought with feats the same way maneuvers are with Martial Study is fine; It's the per-encounter part that would be problematic, so per-day seems like it'd work out fine. You'd still have a few options that could be dangerous, but wraithstrike 1/day at level 6 ... would not break anything, IMO. Fly at level 10, likewise, isn't going to be a big deal; It's a "oh crap, something flying" button, that's all.
Then again, I'm the type of DM that would let a mage-slayer character take a feat to essentially ready a greater dispel (using BAB for caster level) against spells that affect him or the area he's in, which is COMPLETELY anime-style. Cutting through a fireball and taking no damage is awesome.. and I'm okay with awesome thingsPokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.
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2010-10-14, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
I agree that the /encounter vs /day is probably the biggest issue. I would grant the spell only once a day. and probably based on Cha? Caster level would be like Initiator level, in other words 1/2 your class.
I'd probably keep casting classes totally seperate from this.
Also and issue is that you sitll have to meet prereqs for ToB maneuvers. YOu can take a 3rd level maneuver at charlvl 10, but unless its Stone Dragon, it pretty much will have prereqs that you need another maneuver of that school. So perhaps a similar system can be worked out for the spells?Last edited by Susano-wo; 2010-10-14 at 03:49 PM.
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2010-10-14, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
sounds like a dragonmark
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2010-10-14, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2010-10-14, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Martial study : Spells?
Do creatures need to have the requisite mental score, normally 10 + spell level?
Can I take Magic Study: grease at level 1?
How is the spell's DC calculated? Ideally, creatures could determine which stat to use, such as STR for melee guys.