[3.5, Campaign Setting] Traveler's Guide to Zaaman-Rul!

[unosarta]

Then again, remember that the method by which one worships "concepts" really feeds deities. Deities don't need to aggressively recruit, since people do it for them.

I guess.

The idea with them having told people of the Spirit Wind is simple: someone asked the gods what happens when they die, and the gods told them the truth about the Wind. That has just been passed on continuously for a terribly long time.

And others who wanted to make exactly sure would simply ask the gods again. That makes sense. Would the gods ever get annoyed by this? I assume not, but there is the possibility.

In order,

-They become petitioners serving the god, as per Manual of the Planes.
-No.
-No.
-The Bastion of Unborn Souls on the Positive Energy Plane generates new souls constantly for all living beings on the Prime Material and the entire multiverse
-No, it doesn't. In fact, we're not totally sure how the Bastion gets souls from the PEP to the Prime, but it does, so no one really seems to mind overmuch.

How often does the Bastion do so? Wouldn't there be a lot, a frankly huge, number of souls?

-See, I don't like that concept of nature, especially not in a world where nature is mostly dead.

Full stop.

This is a no. Are the humans/animals gone?
Do the laws of science/the universe still working like they do on earth?
If so, where is the oxygen coming from?
Just on earth, a main source of oxygen for our atmosphere are plants, who emit it as a by product for photosynthesis. If nature is gone, that means that the world is effectively starving itself of oxygen. Even just one continent won't really be enough. There will be huge environmental impacts of that fact. Are these impacts factored into the setting?

Think about it this way. Even if the world is dying, it is not doing so because of the mortals, as far as I can see. They simply do not have the levels of technology required to destroy that large of a place.

Having nature "mostly dead" (which is, quite frankly, almost an oxymoron), implies far, far, far, far higher levels of technology, pollution, and harmful damage to the environment. Where is this demonstrated? The mortals are all essentially (besides the robot using society, which likely uses magic anyway), free of pollutants and harm to the environment.

Also, having some forests or something (you haven't mentioned how or why nature is almost dead) being destroyed does not even close to qualify nature as being dead. If it were, there would be no animals, plants, insects, bacteria, protists, fungi or any other living thing. Close being a relative term, that would still mean around 80% of those thing being dead. That leaves you around 2 kingdoms left, out of the 7. Those two would be apparently left for Animals and plants. Without bacteria and protists, animals and plants would not be able to function in many environments, so we have to shoe hole those in. Fungi are necessary for cave living, which you describe kobolds as doing, so that has to be shoe holed in. So, really, none of the systems can survive without the others. Really.

So, what exactly do you mean?

[arguskos]

Perhaps the souls diffuse from the plane of Shadow into the core of the world; this would explain how the qualnargan would have so many recruits; the souls from the plane of shadow would seek the quickest route to where they can be born, and so concentrate on that side of the plane more than the others. However, many of them wind up on the other side of the planet anyways, due to the inherent destructiveness/lack of living quality in the qualnargan's realm.

Perhaps the souls diffuse from the plane of Shadow into the core of the world; this would explain how the qualnargan would have so many recruits; the souls from the plane of shadow would seek the quickest route to where they can be born, and so concentrate on that side of the plane more than the others. However, many of them wind up on the other side of the planet anyways, due to the inherent destructiveness/lack of living quality in the qualnargan's realm.

The mystery of the qualnargan will be further explained in the Edge section of the world discussion.

As for the Bastion of Unborn Souls, that doesn't work. See, the Bastion is on the Positive Energy Plane, not the Plane of Shadow, and additionally it fuels the entire Prime, which consists of thousands of star systems, many of which have inhabited planets. The method by which the Bastion feeds souls into the Prime is unclear, since it somehow transfers the souls of creatures from the PEP to every single living thing on the Prime with no visible transfer that can be traced. Hell, the Bastion itself is hidden deep in the PEP and can't be found except by those who already know where it is.

And others who wanted to make exactly sure would simply ask the gods again. That makes sense. Would the gods ever get annoyed by this? I assume not, but there is the possibility.

Nah, they wouldn't. Most gods would be all "oh, right, question from the faithful, let's answer that".

How often does the Bastion do so? Wouldn't there be a lot, a frankly huge, number of souls?

The Bastion provides every single living beings soul at all times.

And yeah, there are, but you're not accounting for the natural attrition of souls on the Outer Planes. See, souls in petitioner form on the Outer Planes are slowly absorbed by their plane/god/used as money or food/etcetcetc. There's a high attrition rate here.

Are these impacts factored into the setting?

Yeah, actually, they are. The world SHOULD BE DEAD. I haven't gotten a chance to clairfy this, mostly because I'm busy with school, looking for gainful employment, and answering questions/debating with you fine folks.

Allow me to put this to rest: Zaaman-Rul, as of the Cataclysm, is a dead world. It is tectonically inactive, it's one-face, and it's star is dying. Nature, while it persists, is under severe strain. Half of the planet has no atmosphere. The other half (the sunward face, where all of this is taking
place) exists entirely because of the serpentes sacrifice to maintain the
planet in a form capable of sustaining life. That great magic? It's failing. It's been tens of thousands of years since then. No race has the ability to recharge it, and even if they did, there's little point. Z-R is going to die, sooner than later. Whatever nature spirits it once had have long since been dead and gone. Nature, as a concept possessed of power, is DEAD. Period.

Having nature "mostly dead" (which is, quite frankly, almost an oxymoron), implies far, far, far, far higher levels of technology, pollution, and harmful damage to the environment. Where is this demonstrated? The mortals are all essentially (besides the robot using society, which likely uses magic anyway), free of pollutants and harm to the environment.

Did you miss the part where the planet is magically sustained? Where a freaking MOON impacted it? This is all in post #1.

Also, having some forests or something (you haven't mentioned how or why nature is almost dead) being destroyed does not even close to qualify nature as being dead. If it were, there would be no animals, plants, insects, bacteria, protists, fungi or any other living thing. Close being a relative term, that would still mean around 80% of those thing being dead. That leaves you around 2 kingdoms left, out of the 7. Those two would be apparently left for Animals and plants. Without bacteria and protists, animals and plants would not be able to function in many environments, so we have to shoe hole those in. Fungi are necessary for cave living, which you describe kobolds as doing, so that has to be shoe holed in. So, really, none of the systems can survive without the others. Really.

You are aware I am college-educated, and know my basic biology, yes? I know all of this, and I've thought about it. Of course, this is only a simulation, and not something complex enough to really be a perfect representation of what the deal is. Here's how it is:

-Nature, as we understand it on Earth, is a complex, self-sustaining mechanism.
-On Zaaman-Rul, nature is NOT self-sustaining, and hasn't been since the Cataclysm. When Rul impacted Zaaman, it shattered the planet (see image in spoiler). The planet should be gone. When I said above that an entire race sacrificed themselves to save it, I meant it.
-What natural systems remain (plant and animal life) exist due to magic, not due to natural influence.

Picture:

Spoiler

Show

See that shattered world in the background? Make it 1.5 times the size of Earth, and orbiting a star, not another planet, and you've got the image of Z-R from space.

That area on the back, the shattered part? THAT is the Edge, and THAT is where the Qualnargan live and plot.

Is this clear enough, or do I need to clarify further? If I do, that's cool, happy to do so. I'm kinda being quizzed on stuff before I can come anywhere close to posting it all, so that's why this isn't the clearest atm.

[unosarta]

[QUOTE=arguskos;9645343]Yeah, actually, they are. The world SHOULD BE DEAD. I haven't gotten a chance to clairfy this, mostly because I'm busy with school, looking for gainful employment, and answering questions/debating with you fine folks.

-Stuff about Nature-

OK, this makes me feel better. Really, I was not trying to insult you by saying you were unable to understand biology, but a) I did read the first post, and unless you mean that it was in the long and fairly complicated timeline, which I also happened to read but do not remember most of, I could not find it. b) How powerful was this person exactly? I mean, really. You said yourself that the ecosystems of the planet are only alive due to magic. How does that work? Like, the magic that would sustain the plants, animals and everything else that is missing would be more than many, if not all, gods are able to put out. How is a mortal/whoever serpentes is able to do such a thing? And no "epic magic did it" :P

[arguskos]

OK, this makes me feel better. Really, I was not trying to insult you by saying you were unable to understand biology, but a) I did read the first post, and unless you mean that it was in the long and fairly complicated timeline, which I also happened to read but do not remember most of, I could not find it. b) How powerful was this person exactly? I mean, really. You said yourself that the ecosystems of the planet are only alive due to magic. How does that work? Like, the magic that would sustain the plants, animals and everything else that is missing would be more than many, if not all, gods are able to put out. How is a mortal/whoever serpentes is able to do such a thing? And no "epic magic did it" :P

...the Serpentes were a race. And yeah, it was in the timeline. Considering the Timeline is a history of the world, you may wish to re-familiarize yourself with it.

The Serpentes were one of the three progenitor species, along with the Avians and the Dragons, seeded onto Zaaman-Rul by the Fathers in the mists of prehistory. Each built a mighty empire, and eventually fell to warring amongst one another. A group of rogue draconic mages worked a spell to end the war, and used Rul (the moon, roughly the size of Luna, our moon) as a weapon to smite the Avian empire and end the war. Unfortunately, a moon impacting a planet has bad side-effects, and in the aftermath, the serpentes race decided to sacrifice themselves in a single work of magic so powerful it's never been matched since, not even by gods. They wove their very essences into a magical "net" of lifeforce that has sustained the planet ever since. And so Zaaman-Rul limped forth, and the dragons have maintained the planet, serving as guardians and protectors in penance for their sins. However, the serpentes net is failing, the collective life force is running out. Unless the spell is duplicated by the dragons (not gonna happen, since they don't know how to do it), the net will fail in a few hundred years, maybe a thousand at best, just in time for Zar to enter its final stage of life, and begin the process of expansion into a supergiant star, consuming the planet anyways.

[Fable Wright]

So, maybe druids tap into the Serpentes's net, and use it to manifest nature-related powers. They manipulate the web to increase it's effectiveness, taking care of the plants that are there, and when they die, they weave their own energies into the net, allowing for the planet to survive longer. They are caretakers of the world, but there are only a few of them, as many would take it's power for their own advantage, disregarding the safety of the world. Thus, druids are rare, but important figures chosen the the sertentes's magic and purpose, which were also woven into the net.

[unosarta]

...the Serpentes were a race. And yeah, it was in the timeline. Considering the Timeline is a history of the world, you may wish to re-familiarize yourself with it.

Considering the timeline honestly does not give that much information about each group that is mentioned, I doubt it would help much.

The Serpentes were one of the three progenitor species, along with the Avians and the Dragons, seeded onto Zaaman-Rul by the Fathers in the mists of prehistory. Each built a mighty empire, and eventually fell to warring amongst one another. A group of rogue draconic mages worked a spell to end the war, and used Rul (the moon, roughly the size of Luna, our moon) as a weapon to smite the Avian empire and end the war. Unfortunately, a moon impacting a planet has bad side-effects, and in the aftermath, the serpentes race decided to sacrifice themselves in a single work of magic so powerful it's never been matched since, not even by gods. They wove their very essences into a magical "net" of lifeforce that has sustained the planet ever since. And so Zaaman-Rul limped forth, and the dragons have maintained the planet, serving as guardians and protectors in penance for their sins. However, the serpentes net is failing, the collective life force is running out. Unless the spell is duplicated by the dragons (not gonna happen, since they don't know how to do it), the net will fail in a few hundred years, maybe a thousand at best, just in time for Zar to enter its final stage of life, and begin the process of expansion into a supergiant star, consuming the planet anyways.

OK, wait. Why are people playing as characters in this setting? What makes this world anything other than "everyone is going to die soon anyway, we should act like idiots." Honestly, I cannot see why I would be playing in this sort of setting, personally. Oh, there is some conflict? Doesn't matter, I should be living my life, we are all going to die soon anyway.

So, maybe druids tap into the Serpentes's net, and use it to manifest nature-related powers. They manipulate the web to increase it's effectiveness, taking care of the plants that are there, and when they die, they weave their own energies into the net, allowing for the planet to survive longer. They are caretakers of the world, but there are only a few of them, as many would take it's power for their own advantage, disregarding the safety of the world. Thus, druids are rare, but important figures chosen the the sertentes's magic and purpose, which were also woven into the net.

This sounds really cool.

[arguskos]

So, maybe druids tap into the Serpentes's net, and use it to manifest nature-related powers. They manipulate the web to increase it's effectiveness, taking care of the plants that are there, and when they die, they weave their own energies into the net, allowing for the planet to survive longer. They are caretakers of the world, but there are only a few of them, as many would take it's power for their own advantage, disregarding the safety of the world. Thus, druids are rare, but important figures chosen the the sertentes's magic and purpose, which were also woven into the net.

Possible. I like that. I'll think about it.

Considering the timeline honestly does not give that much information about each group that is mentioned, I doubt it would help much.

Again, dude, you're grilling me on stuff that I literally do not have time to expand upon in the front. I'm trying to do it, but answering questions is eating time.

OK, wait. Why are people playing as characters in this setting? What makes this world anything other than "everyone is going to die soon anyway, we should act like idiots." Honestly, I cannot see why I would be playing in this sort of setting, personally. Oh, there is some conflict? Doesn't matter, I should be living my life, we are all going to die soon anyway.

...cause no one knows? Seriously? Because the dragons are aware of something doesn't mean anyone else is. Hell, the gods don't even know, since only one of them was even around back then (Arthindol) and if you look at his goals (world peace), it kinda makes some sense. He knows the flame is coming, and is trying to manipulate things so that he can save lives.

Also, a THOUSAND YEARS is a long time. Look at our (in real life) technological progression in the last 100 years. In another hundred, we'll likely be riding spaceships to the moon. In five hundred, to the rest of the system. In a thousand, we'll have multiple extra-solar colonies. And you think it's any different here? Hell, I already mentioned that the illithids have played around with space-travel, and only turned away because it was expensive and pointless at the moment. They've got the power to do it, they just don't, since right now there's not much point.

Though, I'm glad you don't like it, I guess. It means it provoked a reaction, and that's good. Reactions are the goal, after all, since they symbolize that someone has thoughts about the setting. I'd be more unhappy if someone said it was just boring and bland.

EDIT: Ok, this sounds like I'm angry or defensive or something. I'm not, just stressed from other sources. Keep on being curious, that's good, as long as you're really actually interested. If you're not, hey, that's fine. I'll keep working on it anyways, since I'm having fun with it.

Also, the reaction comment? Meant to show that I'm actually happy at the moment. I like that someone is having a reaction to what I'm putting up there, this is the goal of all writing. Even if someone hates it, that means I got a reaction, which is the entire point, and makes me happy.

[Fable Wright]

Perhaps you could make some ACFs for druids, too, to represent their goals and source of their powers. Still keeping the same flavor, it might be cooler if they had, instead of the ability to spontaneously summon animals, things that boost the physical attributes of the creatures near them that they designate; perhaps they can give each creature within 30ft of their choosing +2/spell level, divided as the druid wants, amongst the stats of a creature. For example, a druid targets a barbarian, a wizard, and themselves with the ability, sacrificing a 3rd level spell slot. They decide to give the barbarian +6 str, the wizard +6 con, and themselves +4 str, +2 con. This could be toggled, but it could be a flavorful ability; their enhancing the magic of the world revitalizes the creatures within it. Perhaps also give them the ability to use plant domain spells (meaning, the ability to cast each of those spells an additional time each day) instead of wild shape, caring more about the future of the world and the nature within it more than imbuing themselves with additional power from the natural world.

[unosarta]

Again, dude, you're grilling me on stuff that I literally do not have time to expand upon in the front. I'm trying to do it, but answering questions is eating time.

Sorry if I was kind of negative, but you did say it was all in the first post, which it wasn't. I mean, since you have elaborated, it does make more sense, but I also didn't have the chance to read it.

...cause no one knows? Seriously? Because the dragons are aware of something doesn't mean anyone else is. Hell, the gods don't even know, since only one of them was even around back then (Arthindol) and if you look at his goals (world peace), it kinda makes some sense. He knows the flame is coming, and is trying to manipulate things so that he can save lives.

Ok, that makes sense.

Though, I'm glad you don't like it, I guess. It means it provoked a reaction, and that's good. Reactions are the goal, after all, since they symbolize that someone has thoughts about the setting. I'd be more unhappy if someone said it was just boring and bland.

Oh, hardly. I love the setting, I am just not really understanding the concept. I guess, if nobody knows, that means that it will certainly not be as terrible as it would be, but if those spells start to fail, the effects will very likely be very, very obvious to many.

[arguskos]

Sorry if I was kind of negative, but you did say it was all in the first post, which it wasn't. I mean, since you have elaborated, it does make more sense, but I also didn't have the chance to read it.

I said the basics were in the first post, which they are. The idea that the world is dying, that a race sacrificed themselves to save it, these are there. I didn't expand on it cause I didn't deem it vital at first. That was obviously a bad decision.

Oh, hardly. I love the setting, I am just not really understanding the concept. I guess, if nobody knows, that means that it will certainly not be as terrible as it would be, but if those spells start to fail, the effects will very likely be very, very obvious to many.

The concept is as follows: In darkness, each light shines all the stronger for the darkness. In the darkest of all possible places, any light, no matter how feeble, is all the stronger for it. Zaaman-Rul is among the darkest worlds in the multiverse, a realm steeped in melancholy, draped in gray cloths. Most races are stagnating, things are hard everywhere. Each hero that rises burns all the brighter because of it, and each of them can change the world in ways that a hero could never dream of doing in say, Eberron or Faerun.

Think about it. Intolar is locked in a perpetual war with Khavghotan. Alykandor has internal problems and is warring with Orlyndol over borders. Orlyndol has a culture that lends itself to endless deliberation where little gets done. The only free continent in the world, Xortal, wants to kill everything that sets foot on it. There's little hope of a bright future for the common folk of the world.

This is where heroes come in. The players have the chance, because they're players, to make a difference, to better things. Heroes arise and change the world. That's the concept. I'm trying to express it, and much editing will be done, but that's what I'm shooting for.

[Fable Wright]

...I really want to play in this setting, now...

Perhaps at the top of the first post, you could put up,
In darkness, each light shines all the stronger for the darkness. In the darkest of all possible places, any light, no matter how feeble, is all the stronger for it. Zaaman-Rul is among the darkest worlds in the multiverse, a realm steeped in melancholy, draped in gray cloths. Most races are stagnating, things are hard everywhere. Each hero that rises burns all the brighter because of it, and each of them can change the world in ways that a hero from anywhere else could never dream of doing.
The world is in shambles. Intolar is locked in a perpetual war with Khavghotan. Alykandor has internal problems and is warring with Orlyndol over borders. Orlyndol has a culture that lends itself to endless deliberation where little gets done. The only free continent in the world, Xortal, wants to kill everything that sets foot on it. There's little hope of a bright future for the common folk of the world.
Now is the time for heroes. Now is the time for the light to burn the brightest.
Or something to that effect.

[unosarta]

I said the basics were in the first post, which they are. The idea that the world is dying, that a race sacrificed themselves to save it, these are there. I didn't expand on it cause I didn't deem it vital at first. That was obviously a bad decision.

Well, the destruction of the entire world upon which the setting is based would be a little important. I mean, I understand that sarcasm isn't really necessary here, but really.

The concept is as follows: In darkness, each light shines all the stronger for the darkness. In the darkest of all possible places, any light, no matter how feeble, is all the stronger for it. Zaaman-Rul is among the darkest worlds in the multiverse, a realm steeped in melancholy, draped in gray cloths. Most races are stagnating, things are hard everywhere. Each hero that rises burns all the brighter because of it, and each of them can change the world in ways that a hero could never dream of doing in say, Eberron or Faerun.

But why does the hero have an incentive to do that? What is the conflict? Where are the enemies?

This is where heroes come in. The players have the chance, because they're players, to make a difference, to better things. Heroes arise and change the world. That's the concept. I'm trying to express it, and much editing will be done, but that's what I'm shooting for.

I guess, but they really don't have a reason to. Heroes are not just born that way, they have to be forged, so to speak. I guess this setting is not just speaking to my ability to write a character in this way.

Like, having tried, they all seem one sided and boring. I could be a zealot for Intolar, but where are the interesting moral dilemmas that usually come with playing a Zealot? I could play a super intelligent whatever class I want from the Illithid, but I wouldn't necessarily feel the strain of being a social outcast. There is a cutoff point, at least for my imagination, where too much grimdark becomes just too much grimdark.

Maybe this is just a fault of my own.

[Edit]: Ugh, I feel bad now. I don't want to rip on your setting or anything. It is just really frustrating. For any concept I can make, or think up, it just feels plastic-y. Maybe there just isn't enough stuff up for me to become inspired.

[radmelon]

[/lurking]That quote is epic. Every campaign setting needs a tagline as good as that. Especially for a setting as awesome as this one.

[arguskos]

...I really want to play in this setting, now...

Perhaps at the top of the first post, you could put up,
In darkness, each light shines all the stronger for the darkness. In the darkest of all possible places, any light, no matter how feeble, is all the stronger for it. Zaaman-Rul is among the darkest worlds in the multiverse, a realm steeped in melancholy, draped in gray cloths. Most races are stagnating, things are hard everywhere. Each hero that rises burns all the brighter because of it, and each of them can change the world in ways that a hero from anywhere else could never dream of doing.
The world is in shambles. Intolar is locked in a perpetual war with Khavghotan. Alykandor has internal problems and is warring with Orlyndol over borders. Orlyndol has a culture that lends itself to endless deliberation where little gets done. The only free continent in the world, Xortal, wants to kill everything that sets foot on it. There's little hope of a bright future for the common folk of the world.
Now is the time for heroes. Now is the time for the light to burn the brightest.
Or something to that effect.

I may have to fiddle a bit, then put that up top. Apparently, people like that little blurb I threw out there.

Well, the destruction of the entire world upon which the setting is based would be a little important. I mean, I understand that sarcasm isn't really necessary here, but really.

When no mortal is aware of it, why would it be needed to know about? How many games are going to last for a thousand years?

But why does the hero have an incentive to do that? What is the conflict? Where are the enemies?

Ok, think about it like this. Let's say you're born in Intolar as a freeman. You work the fields, worship Scyllua, and live a quiet and unassuming life. You've got the equivalent of a high school education and are fairly free-thinking. One day, your town is attacked and burned down by a rogue group of goblins. You survive through wits alone, and bitterly, you enroll in the Military to get some revenge on those damn human-killing bastards. Eventually, you face down the clan that destroyed your village, and before you can kill the shaman of that clan, he asks you to stop and look at what you're doing, says that you're doing to him what he did to you, and if he said he was sorry, would you believe him?

What would you say? Do you forgive him? If so, why? If not, why? You say Z-R has no conflict right now, but you forget that the same could be said today. Look at the world right now, and ask yourself, is there conflict? Why? Where's it come from?

Z-R runs on the same principles as the real world: people, elf or man, illithid or goblin, have thoughts, are unique individuals. Why wouldn't someone in Intolar rebel against the system (and in fact, many have, that's the Underground)? Why wouldn't someone want to carve out their own little nation state in Khavghotan (and many have in the past)? Conflict exists if you look for it or reason why people do the things they do.

Like, having tried, they all seem one sided and boring. I could be a zealot for Intolar, but where are the interesting moral dilemmas that usually come with playing a Zealot?

Slortar preaches peace, but he has Zealots of his cause that nevertheless fight against the Khavghotani. Is this right? Why or why not?

Zealots of Donblas, Lord of Justice, fight against injustice, but who defines injustice? If we could ask Donblas what he thinks about the freeman above, what would he say? Would he say to kill the shaman and call it eye-for-an-eye, or would he say to spare him, for justice demands compassion? I don't know, are you saying you do?

I could play a super intelligent whatever class I want from the Illithid, but I wouldn't necessarily feel the strain of being a social outcast.

I haven't discussed them much yet, so this is understandable.

There is a cutoff point, at least for my imagination, where too much grimdark becomes just too much grimdark.

You're focusing far too much on the big picture, stuff PCs will not be able to know about. You're looking at it and asking "what is death like? What are the gods like? Why is nature weak?" and when I answer, you grow disheartened and say "this is so grimdark".

Look at it with the eyes of someone living in this world, in a repressive militaristic theocracy, and ask yourself, "why wouldn't I want to change it?" If you're disgusted or disgruntled with the way the world looks, that's good. You're angry. You're supposed to dislike it, since then you have a motive to change it.

[Edit]: Ugh, I feel bad now. I don't want to rip on your setting or anything. It is just really frustrating. For any concept I can make, or think up, it just feels plastic-y. Maybe there just isn't enough stuff up for me to become inspired.[/QUOTE]
Don't sweat it. I think it's an issue of perspective.

[/lurking]That quote is epic. Every campaign setting needs a tagline as good as that. Especially for a setting as awesome as this one.

I'll post something up then.

[unosarta]

Ok, think about it like this. Let's say you're born in Intolar as a freeman. You work the fields, worship Scyllua, and live a quiet and unassuming life. You've got the equivalent of a high school education and are fairly free-thinking. One day, your town is attacked and burned down by a rogue group of goblins. You survive through wits alone, and bitterly, you enroll in the Military to get some revenge on those damn human-killing bastards. Eventually, you face down the clan that destroyed your village, and before you can kill the shaman of that clan, he asks you to stop and look at what you're doing, says that you're doing to him what he did to you, and if he said he was sorry, would you believe him?

First of all, kind of a nitpick; don't they have a language barrier? I mean, yes, this could be applied to another situation that did have no such barrier. I just, feel that if I were the Zealot, unless I were specifically trying to make an ethical dilemma, I would have no hesitancy. Why would I? The goblins have been fighting the humans forever. Why would there be any hesitancy? Also, having that much ethnic violence between groups makes it much harder to have good inter-party relations. Compare; one player wants to play a goblin. The other wants to play a human in the Intolar military. One of them, at the very, very least, will have lost either a relative or friend lost to either side of the war. Isn't that limiting the party makeup?

What would you say? Do you forgive him? If so, why? If not, why? You say Z-R has no conflict right now, but you forget that the same could be said today. Look at the world right now, and ask yourself, is there conflict? Why? Where's it come from?

I don't think that the Zealot would even stop. If he truly believed in what the government was telling him, and he likely does, then he wouldn't even need to think it over. The humans of Intolar fight the goblins. Those goblins have things that the humans need, and deserve, and they must die. What else is there to ask about?

As for the current times; there is ambiguity now though. No government truly has control over everything. From the description of Intolar, it seems like they do. Compare; One could have friends in Israel, while still being from Palestine. I know that this is sort of straying into world politics, however it is still just a parallel, not confirming or denying any views on such ideas.

How, on the other hand, would someone from Intolar have a good relationship with a goblinoid from Khavghotan? A), in the real world, there is something that allows all people to come together, that they are all of the same species. Even though ideas and thoughts may be alien to some, everyone retains some sort of resemblance to each other. This is not paralleled in Zaaman-Rul. B), there is not such a large language barrier between cultures. Most cultures that have any sort of enmity against each other at the very least share a language family, if they are in roughly the same area. This is not, apparently, paralleled by Zaaman-Rul.

Z-R runs on the same principles as the real world: people, elf or man, illithid or goblin, have thoughts, are unique individuals. Why wouldn't someone in Intolar rebel against the system (and in fact, many have, that's the Underground)? Why wouldn't someone want to carve out their own little nation state in Khavghotan (and many have in the past)? Conflict exists if you look for it or reason why people do the things they do.

You should maybe make that more obvious? Like, if you ever make organizations, add rebels as a concrete faction. Otherwise, I had no idea that there was such a group. Again, this makes critiquing the setting practically impossible, since I do not have all of the information. This isn't your fault in any way, just a note.

Slortar preaches peace, but he has Zealots of his cause that nevertheless fight against the Khavghotani. Is this right? Why or why not?

Why would someone who fights for peace advocate for his followers to fight? What is the deal with that?

Zealots of Donblas, Lord of Justice, fight against injustice, but who defines injustice? If we could ask Donblas what he thinks about the freeman above, what would he say? Would he say to kill the shaman and call it eye-for-an-eye, or would he say to spare him, for justice demands compassion? I don't know, are you saying you do?

Obviously the heavenly embodiment of justice, at least for the Intolar. And no, I am not saying I know what justice is, but for the people, their god does. Otherwise, why worship him? If not, they would just worship the concept of justice. Although this would still empower him, they would then choose their own definition of justice. Even if multiples were to come together and argue which is the real justice, they are zealots. They would simply argue that the others' justice is the wrong one.

You're focusing far too much on the big picture, stuff PCs will not be able to know about. You're looking at it and asking "what is death like? What are the gods like? Why is nature weak?" and when I answer, you grow disheartened and say "this is so grimdark".

I guess, but even then.

Look at it with the eyes of someone living in this world, in a repressive militaristic theocracy, and ask yourself, "why wouldn't I want to change it?" If you're disgusted or disgruntled with the way the world looks, that's good. You're angry. You're supposed to dislike it, since then you have a motive to change it.

OK, you can't really blame me for this one, since I had no idea that the rebels existed at the time of posting.

[arguskos]

First of all, kind of a nitpick; don't they have a language barrier? I mean, yes, this could be applied to another situation that did have no such barrier. I just, feel that if I were the Zealot, unless I were specifically trying to make an ethical dilemma, I would have no hesitancy. Why would I? The goblins have been fighting the humans forever. Why would there be any hesitancy? Also, having that much ethnic violence between groups makes it much harder to have good inter-party relations. Compare; one player wants to play a goblin. The other wants to play a human in the Intolar military. One of them, at the very, very least, will have lost either a relative or friend lost to either side of the war. Isn't that limiting the party makeup?

1. On the party make-up thing, yeah, that's right. And that's also intentional. Intolar is a unique issue there, since they're not very nice folks if they're military citizens.

2. On the Zealot issue, you are making it sound like they are all brainwashed morons who only listen to dogmatic preachings! Look at religious folks today, they're not brainwashed dogmatic preachers, they're unique individuals who can question teachings and thoughts. The name isn't the mental make-up of every individual who has levels in the class.

I don't think that the Zealot would even stop. If he truly believed in what the government was telling him, and he likely does, then he wouldn't even need to think it over. The humans of Intolar fight the goblins. Those goblins have things that the humans need, and deserve, and they must die. What else is there to ask about?

Humans aren't all monsters, dude! Some of them would stop and ask what they're doing, if this is right, is this true to what they should be doing? Is it morally right?

Why do you think they're ALL black and white? People are individuals you know.

As for the current times; there is ambiguity now though. No government truly has control over everything. From the description of Intolar, it seems like they do. Compare; One could have friends in Israel, while still being from Palestine. I know that this is sort of straying into world politics, however it is still just a parallel, not confirming or denying any views on such ideas.

...why would you think that? Why would you think Intolar has COMPLETE CONTROL OMG? Well before this debate I wrote about the Underground in the second post of this thread, talking about the Underground, about conflict in the government, etc. Was this just unclear?

How, on the other hand, would someone from Intolar have a good relationship with a goblinoid from Khavghotan? A), in the real world, there is something that allows all people to come together, that they are all of the same species. Even though ideas and thoughts may be alien to some, everyone retains some sort of resemblance to each other. This is not paralleled in Zaaman-Rul. B), there is not such a large language barrier between cultures. Most cultures that have any sort of enmity against each other at the very least share a language family, if they are in roughly the same area. This is not, apparently, paralleled by Zaaman-Rul.

Loyal Intolians wouldn't likely get along well, but not everyone is close-minded and dogmatic. Again, why do you think this is so black-and-white?

You should maybe make that more obvious? Like, if you ever make organizations, add rebels as a concrete faction. Otherwise, I had no idea that there was such a group. Again, this makes critiquing the setting practically impossible, since I do not have all of the information. This isn't your fault in any way, just a note.

I already did, well before this discussion.

Why would someone who fights for peace advocate for his followers to fight? What is the deal with that?

Because he doesn't. Mortals do it for him, preaching his thoughts at the end of a rifle. This apparently isn't clear: mortals are unique individuals, they make their own damn decisions, the gods just roll with it.

Obviously the heavenly embodiment of justice, at least for the Intolar. And no, I am not saying I know what justice is, but for the people, their god does. Otherwise, why worship him? If not, they would just worship the concept of justice. Although this would still empower him, they would then choose their own definition of justice. Even if multiples were to come together and argue which is the real justice, they are zealots. They would simply argue that the others' justice is the wrong one.

Ok, in reality, two groups disagreeing on small things have lead to catastrophic warfare and nightmarish conditions. Two groups of zealots disagreeing on what "justice" means could spark an internal war in the church that might well divide it. One group thinks justice is compassionate, the other thinks it is remorseless, this is a fundamental fracture in their unity.

This goes the same for everything. People in Z-R aren't different than people today in any fundamental way, they are unique individuals. How is this hard to comprehend? I'm confused how I've not made this clear enough. Have I been overly unclear somewhere?

OK, you can't really blame me for this one, since I had no idea that the rebels existed at the time of posting.

I already mentioned there are rebels, some time ago, and I reaaaaaally don't think I made it so "RAWR NO THOUGHT RAWR" that this is what people should be thinking. If I did, I want to hear from other people that this is the case, so I can rewrite it appropriately.

[unosarta]

2. On the Zealot issue, you are making it sound like they are all brainwashed morons who only listen to dogmatic preachings! Look at religious folks today, they're not brainwashed dogmatic preachers, they're unique individuals who can question teachings and thoughts. The name isn't the mental make-up of every individual who has levels in the class.

Intolar is an oppressive theocratic regime that preaches xenophobia and isolation and wars constantly with its only land neighbor, the southern Khavghotan. The populace is vastly ignorant of the true state of the world, and even when presented with facts about the other nations just dismiss them as superstitious nonsense at best, or treasonous and heretical talk at worst.

After reading this, what would make me think they aren't brainwashed idiots. "vastly ignorant of the true state of the world"? What else could that mean?

...why would you think that? Why would you think Intolar has COMPLETE CONTROL OMG? Well before this debate I wrote about the Underground in the second post of this thread, talking about the Underground, about conflict in the government, etc. Was this just unclear?

Imperial propaganda proclaims the Underground as terrorists and seditionists, and for what it's worth, tends to be right. The Underground is composed of so many disparate groups that don't work together that in many cases acts of terrorism are claimed by someone or other who has links to the Underground.

What of that sounds like the underground plays a large part in the population at large's lives? If they don't, who else does the population have to listen to? Unless they are high level clerics, they can't really talk to their gods, and if they aren't, then they must ask the clergy, who also run the government. The army goes to the Emperor, and the clergy have access to him. What other areas of indication have you given that they don't?

This goes the same for everything. People in Z-R aren't different than people today in any fundamental way, they are unique individuals. How is this hard to comprehend? I'm confused how I've not made this clear enough. Have I been overly unclear somewhere?

Except, people today and those who live in Z-R are fundamentally different. The people who live in Z-R know their gods exist. Even without the numerous other ways that I could show that they are different, that is the largest one. I could disagree with what someone says about religion today, because I can say that religion is all about belief, so if we don't believe the same things, that is OK. However, in Z-R, how can you argue that? The gods literally can and have come to the material plane. They exist, and everyone has definitive proof. So, how could one could argue against the church? They could argue against the way the church has a government, but the Church is mostly given their power directly from the gods. This is a major, probably beyond hugely, big difference from today, and it compounds on the other differences, like different species, no ability for a single subject to truly cross borders of nations, no cross-border language, no technology that might bring them together, since magic is expensive; the list goes on.

I already mentioned there are rebels, some time ago, and I reaaaaaally don't think I made it so "RAWR NO THOUGHT RAWR" that this is what people should be thinking. If I did, I want to hear from other people that this is the case, so I can rewrite it appropriately.

From what I read, you did. Just saying that they worship every night does not mean that they have free thought. Especially since if they do worship every night, they feel even more connected to the church. At least, that is what I read from it.

Honestly, I really don't want to be slamming your setting. Everything else about Intolar is really cool. And, to rectify it? All you have to do is say that a lot of citizens don't really believe most of the propaganda said by the church, or something to that effect.

[arguskos]

Honestly, I really don't want to be slamming your setting. Everything else about Intolar is really cool. And, to rectify it? All you have to do is say that a lot of citizens don't really believe most of the propaganda said by the church, or something to that effect.

You're doing a good job on accident.

I'll change Intolar to be more free-thinking and less theocratic, etcetcetc. They're obviously not quite where they should be. I'll be coming back to them in awhile, once I've thought about it further. For now, ignore what I have posted, since it's all going to go away and be reshaped into something entirely different. Already throwing around a few ideas to that extent.

Understand, I personally dislike the tack you're taking, but since this is mostly for other people, not just myself, my personal vision doesn't matter overly much. I'll change it.

EDIT: Also, there's some limited new Khavghotan info up. I'll try and do more of it today. *goes off to do just that*

EDIT²: Intolar is to be entirely revamped. Things that are leaving:
-Divine influence.
-The Imperial attitude to the world, so the xenophobia and intolerance.
-The magi-tech.
-The warfare with Khavghotan (which necessitates changes to Khavghotan as well, just ignore the fluff there for now ).

Haven't completely decided what is replacing it yet, but something will. Probably something fairly standard for now.

[unosarta]

You're doing a good job on accident.

I... have no idea what this means, but there is a positive smiley face, so I am just going to go with it.

I'll change Intolar to be more free-thinking and less theocratic, etcetcetc. They're obviously not quite where they should be. I'll be coming back to them in awhile, once I've thought about it further. For now, ignore what I have posted, since it's all going to go away and be reshaped into something entirely different. Already throwing around a few ideas to that extent.

It seems that as a polytheistic pantheon, they would have different branches of the church itself. Just as you don't worship every god all at once, governmental work is not controlled by a single entity. Maybe one way to do it would be to have the gods all in their respective positions, Slortarian priests as healers, Donblas' as police and/or armies, and so on. Maybe, instead, they would be in the opposite? Like, priests of Slortar would be the armies, Donblas being the spies, Pyaray being the court systems. It stands to reason that those who work with what they are known for would grow malleable and corrupt. Put into a new situation, they would be able to apply the wisdom of their god, as well as the prudence of his or her teachings. This could lead one of two ways. Either they prosper in their positions, or the positions change them as a scion of the church, such as the aforementioned priests of Slortar becoming more and more violent, with malevolent tendencies. Just something to think about.

Understand, I personally dislike the tack you're taking, but since this is mostly for other people, not just myself, my personal vision doesn't matter overly much. I'll change it.

I don't, ever, want to make you change your setting when you are unwilling. When making something creatively, as is being done now, it stands to reason that one should express themselves, and if others like it that is fine and good. Yes, it is an interactive game, but that doesn't mean you should change anything, necessarily. How do you feel the tack I am taking (which I honestly don't know I am taking, ) is making you feel as if you should change something? I really want to know.

EDIT: Also, there's some limited new Khavghotan info up. I'll try and do more of it today. *goes off to do just that*

Cool!

[arguskos]

Hey dude, I just added this to the above post:

EDIT2: Intolar is to be entirely revamped. Things that are leaving:
-Divine influence.
-The Imperial attitude to the world, so the xenophobia and intolerance.
-The magi-tech.
-The warfare with Khavghotan (which necessitates changes to Khavghotan as well, just ignore the fluff there for now ).

Haven't completely decided what is replacing it yet, but something will. Probably something fairly standard for now.

I'll respond to the rest of it eventually, probably in a few hours when I get some time.

EDIT: Doing it now, I have the time.

I... have no idea what this means, but there is a positive smiley face, so I am just going to go with it.

Don't worry about it.

It seems that as a polytheistic pantheon, they would have different branches of the church itself. Just as you don't worship every god all at once, governmental work is not controlled by a single entity. Maybe one way to do it would be to have the gods all in their respective positions, Slortarian priests as healers, Donblas' as police and/or armies, and so on. Maybe, instead, they would be in the opposite? Like, priests of Slortar would be the armies, Donblas being the spies, Pyaray being the court systems. It stands to reason that those who work with what they are known for would grow malleable and corrupt. Put into a new situation, they would be able to apply the wisdom of their god, as well as the prudence of his or her teachings. This could lead one of two ways. Either they prosper in their positions, or the positions change them as a scion of the church, such as the aforementioned priests of Slortar becoming more and more violent, with malevolent tendencies. Just something to think about.

Irrelevant, since the pantheon is changing/being removed. Good world building exercise though.

I don't, ever, want to make you change your setting when you are unwilling. When making something creatively, as is being done now, it stands to reason that one should express themselves, and if others like it that is fine and good. Yes, it is an interactive game, but that doesn't mean you should change anything, necessarily. How do you feel the tack I am taking (which I honestly don't know I am taking, ) is making you feel as if you should change something? I really want to know.

This is not really for me. If it was just for me, I wouldn't post anything. This is for other people to comment on, be a part of, experience, shape, and help build. With that in mind, when something creates this level of dissent and dissatisfaction, it has to be changed, period. So I'm changing it. Otherwise, why would I bother posting it publicly?

[Dire Ferret]

Unfortunate, I rather liked Intolar. Since they're no longer going to be xenophobic, does this mean Intolar is no longer responsible for the genocide of gnomes and halflings?

[unosarta]

Intolar is to be entirely revamped. Things that are leaving:
-Divine influence.
-The Imperial attitude to the world, so the xenophobia and intolerance.
-The magi-tech.
-The warfare with Khavghotan (which necessitates changes to Khavghotan as well, just ignore the fluff there for now ).

Haven't completely decided what is replacing it yet, but something will. Probably something fairly standard for now.

I feel really bad now. I don't think you should remove a major faction just based on one person's testimony unless you are absolutely sure about it. I know that it may seem like I am doubting your surety, but really, Intolar isn't a bad faction per se. I just think they need to be added to, in fact, rather than remove entirely.

This is not really for me. If it was just for me, I wouldn't post anything. This is for other people to comment on, be a part of, experience, shape, and help build. With that in mind, when something creates this level of dissent and dissatisfaction, it has to be changed, period. So I'm changing it. Otherwise, why would I bother posting it publicly?

Yes, but, only using one person's testimony, as mentioned above, doesn't seem to be a very good idea, even if I am the person saying it. I would ask others to say what they think about Intolar and how it reacts with the campaign setting, rather than just my deluded, crazy brain.

[Fable Wright]

Personally, I like Intolar. It could definitely make for interesting characters, although most goblinoid party members will try to kill you. Nevertheless, I like it as-is.

[IcarusWings]

Yeah, I think Intolar's fine as it is. And anyway, PC's are supposed to be different than the commoners, so it would be easy to have a, say, Zealot who witnesses some horrific genocide and turns his back on Intolar, that's what PC backstories are there for.

[absolmorph]

Unfortunate, I rather liked Intolar. Since they're no longer going to be xenophobic, does this mean Intolar is no longer responsible for the genocide of gnomes and halflings?

Personally, I like Intolar. It could definitely make for interesting characters, although most goblinoid party members will try to kill you. Nevertheless, I like it as-is.

Yeah, I think Intolar's fine as it is. And anyway, PC's are supposed to be different than the commoners, so it would be easy to have a, say, Zealot who witnesses some horrific genocide and turns his back on Intolar, that's what PC backstories are there for.

Agreeing with these people.
You could keep the xenophobia but tone it down somewhat. Maybe more of a "stay away from us" xenophobia, with a special dislike of goblinoids (for some slight, real or imagined).
I like nations like Intolar and Khavghotan; they're unique, and aren't the standard "benevolent monarchy/democracy/whathaveyou" or "evil empire" that are just so easy to use.

[arguskos]

Yes, but, only using one person's testimony, as mentioned above, doesn't seem to be a very good idea, even if I am the person saying it. I would ask others to say what they think about Intolar and how it reacts with the campaign setting, rather than just my deluded, crazy brain.

I had exactly one person's opinion to go on, and their opinion was lengthy and apparently quite in favor of changing Intolar to something entirely outside of my original vision of it.

Since until right now, no one else had stepped forward to give an opinion (which by the by, is mildly annoying, but understandable) and seeing as how this isn't just for me, I was going to change it.

Now, I am less sure.

Personally, I like Intolar. It could definitely make for interesting characters, although most goblinoid party members will try to kill you. Nevertheless, I like it as-is.

Agreed.

Unfortunate, I rather liked Intolar. Since they're no longer going to be xenophobic, does this mean Intolar is no longer responsible for the genocide of gnomes and halflings?

No, they'd still be dead. I'd change the reason why though.

Yeah, I think Intolar's fine as it is. And anyway, PC's are supposed to be different than the commoners, so it would be easy to have a, say, Zealot who witnesses some horrific genocide and turns his back on Intolar, that's what PC backstories are there for.

And here someone finally gets the entire point I was shooting for. Intolar as a collection of NPCs is not meant to be likable nor nice. Indeed, I intended for PCs to be the exceptional people in the room, the ones who go, "hey wait a minute... what are we doing?" That's why backstories exist. Of course, now, I am unsure. That there is division at all makes me question if I did my job right.

Agreeing with these people.
You could keep the xenophobia but tone it down somewhat. Maybe more of a "stay away from us" xenophobia, with a special dislike of goblinoids (for some slight, real or imagined).

Perhaps. That is less interesting morally and socially though. Loyal Intolians aren't really meant to be that useful for PC use, beyond if there is an all-Intolian campaign (which would be a blast to play and to run, I bet).

I like nations like Intolar and Khavghotan; they're unique, and aren't the standard "benevolent monarchy/democracy/whathaveyou" or "evil empire" that are just so easy to use.

That's the hope.

Look folks, I don't want to change it, but that some folks think it needs to change is enough for me to consider it. Here's the question: do I change it? If so, what do I change? The project is on hold until this is figured out, since changing on nation changes the rest dramatically.

[Fable Wright]

My vote: Do Not Change.

[absolmorph]

I'm also in favor of keeping it as-is.

[erictheredd]

As a lurker, I think that Intolar is the defining part of this world right now. And I think it is very well done. I personally find it a good deal more realistic than most fictional nations. It also is currently a MASSIVE generator of conflict. It is in a perpetual war, has many complex factions trying to one up each other, and effects the context of all game play. It does cast the "primary" race (lets face it, we relate to the humans in every game) in a negative light, but I think all races here are going to be cast that way.

I wonder what happens to humans to leave Intolar. They are of course Heretics, and who knows which gods they worship, if at all, but how are they received? Do they form exiled communities, or is the xenophobia of their fellows sufficient to turn those who would be neighbors into enemies?

[unosarta]

But arguing that the PCs are special means that they are being shoe holed into being the social and moral outcasts from Intolar.

I like it, but as I said before it needs more defining. Why would a polytheistic pantheon have a government run by one group? That makes almost no sense to me. The group that was in the largest majority would rule over the rest, creating problems among the governments. That is not an interesting moral dilemma, that is bad politics.

I love the gods though. Like, really, really, really cool idea.

Suggestions:

Tone down xenophobia. Seriously, if the Khavghotan ever got any allies, and they probably would since they have a huge freaking scrap heap of gems, they would more than likely end up crushing Intolar. Why would a government/priesthood that wants itself to continue living even try that.

Diversify the government settings. If there is any sort of town, city or even country that is widely known for allowing their citizens choice, and the Intolians start comparing their lives, things are going to go baaaaaaaaad. This is roughly similar to why a lot of countries switched over to a system that allowed for actual choice of the citizens, after seeing one such country do so (I am not even going to bring up names here, I think people know what I am talking about). Either way, the government needs to diversify. Good politics states that the government needs checks and balances. Most political systems run on that theory. One way to do it might have the government be separated into the Imperial branch, which deals with the military and other international issues.

The civilian branch deals with civil issues, like taxes and social work. The religious branch of the government could deal with more spiritual work, as well as advising the other branches. Any tax voted in by the Civilian branch must be OK'd by the clergy and the Emperor. Any army deal made by the emperor must be OK'd by the Civilians and the clergy. The clergy would probably be left up to themselves. In this way, it gives the emperor the visage of power, as it would if he were a constitutional monarch, it gives the civilians the vestige of freedom necessary to compete as a world power among more democratic states, and the clergy advise the others.

Although it would at first seem very clunky and slow of a system, because the clergy advise the two other branches, they are effectively the ones who run the government, although they don't really seem like it. In the current form, they are like a more overtly totalitarian force among the government, but if they were truly politically intelligent, they would try to hide their power, and play games from the shadows. This is, of course, just a suggestion, feel free to use what you wish, or not at all, if that is the case.

Diversify the clergy. No, really. The clergy as it currently is does not make much sense for a group of people worshiping multiple gods. As far as I read, and I made sure to read all of it, so that I wouldn't make any errors, the clergy is one solid body. Do they all worship one god? Do some worship several different gods? Do they all worship all of the gods? Every one of these options would work, but they aren't really mentioned, as far as I read. If they are mentioned, the fact that they are part of a pantheon of multiple gods doesn't really seem to be incorporated into daily life. As a citizen of Intolar, what do I worship? Would I worship one god, as my patron, or several gods, to reflect what I work as? Or all of the gods, in turn? Each of those has other logical consequences, that I couldn't really find in the description.

Also; do most Intolians live in major cities, or in smaller villages, and if there isn't a large portion living in either one, which seems more prevalent. The exact makeup of who lives where is also very important, especially in this case, with religion being such a big deal.