Why the condensed skill lists?

[druid91]

I've seen this in many games, people condensing hide and move silently into stealth, or jump and tumble into acrobatics, or climb and swim into athletics.

So why do you use (or not use) condensed skill lists?

[Milskidasith]

Because you get hilariously low skill points per level, the skills condensed are either worthless except very rarely, or always used together, and it helps out non magic classes more than magic classes.

[SurlySeraph]

What Milskidasith said. Also, without condensed skill lists you get silly results, like masters of jumping, tumbling, and climbing who aren't any good at balancing.

[Anxe]

That'd be because people rarely hide or move silently separately.

Jump is pretty much useless after the player's get fly. Tumble is always useful, but no so much at lower levels when you miss the skill check all the time. This way you get a skill that is useful all the time.

Climb and swim are together because they are so rarely used except in specific situations that might arise once in every campaign.

[Coidzor]

I know one reason is that people just think some things are so interconnected it's silly to have one without the other.

Another reason is wanting to increase the ability to take more secondary skills.

[Lhurgyof]

What Milskidasith said. Also, without condensed skill lists you get silly results, like masters of jumping, tumbling, and climbing who aren't any good at balancing.

Synergies.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Other option that I have considered but haven't implemented (yet) is increasing all classes SP (except full casters) by 50 %. thus fighters get 4 +int and rogues would get 12+int for example.

But I like the idea of condensing the skill list, it just makes sense somehow (a little problematic with some PRG class, but that is easily fixable)

[valadil]

I like condensed lists. They help ensure that there's a reasonable balance between everyday skills and esoteric ones. 4th ed is pretty good about this. While some skills are definitely more common than others, there isn't a single skill on the list that I've seen any GM neglect entirely. Unlike, say, Forgery in 3.5.

[druid91]

I like condensed lists. They help ensure that there's a reasonable balance between everyday skills and esoteric ones. 4th ed is pretty good about this. While some skills are definitely more common than others, there isn't a single skill on the list that I've seen any GM neglect entirely. Unlike, say, Forgery in 3.5.

Forgery gets neglected? I love forgery, then again I like ebberon where forgery is extraordinarily useful so...

[Coidzor]

Forgery is insanely dependent upon DMs, really. And of less than immediately obvious utility unless documentations are a thing.

[Serpentine]

Well, as long as we're talking about this, I just officially (i.e. I wrote it down) instituted the following houserule: Intimidate and Diplomacy are now Persuasion; Listen and Spot are Perception; Hide and Move Silently are Stealth.
For on-topic reasoning: the first because they seem like different approaches to the same object, and aren't particularly mutually exclusive (i.e. any difference can be roleplayed, with appropriate consequences); the second takes into account such things as taste and smell and are often used together; and the last are almost never used separately.
Off-topic request: is this a good/decent idea?

[mangosta71]

I tend to prefer condensed skill lists in 3.5. Especially for rogues, as there are so many "archetypal" rogue skills, and even 8+Int per level isn't enough to take all of them.

[Chrono22]

It simplifies the mechanics, it makes sense, and it helps balance play a bit more. It also allows players to free up skill ranks for secondary skillsets.

[ericgrau]

I've seen arguments of if I have one without the other, then another skill where people say you can be good at one without necessarily being good at the other. I was listening to a podcast of 4e D&D and one of the PCs was getting athletics and acrobatics mixed up. Then the DM (also a WotC author) said "No, you can only use athletics if you're jumping, climbing or swimming; tumbling or balance is acrobatics." Which wouldn't have been an issue if they just used 3e skills. Really I think it's to make things simpler during character generation, so you're not overwhelmed with options. And because while they don't necessarily get learned together, they tend to be and condensing makes it simpler to pick them. As for not having enough skill points, I've seen DMs simply give the PCs more skill points. So I don't think that's an issue. In my own system I make ranks cost double since there are a little under half as many skills.

[Noodles2375]

I tend to prefer condensed skill lists in 3.5. Especially for rogues, as there are so many "archetypal" rogue skills, and even 8+Int per level isn't enough to take all of them.

This is SOOOOOO true.

Rogue's should have a liberal arts education in larceny. They need to be good at all of the archetypal stuff!

[Starbuck_II]

What Milskidasith said. Also, without condensed skill lists you get silly results, like masters of jumping, tumbling, and climbing who aren't any good at balancing.

I don't mind Jump/Tumble as different: they add Synergies.

Why don't Move silent/hide? Might as well combine them if they don't.

[Eldan]

The only thing I threw out was appraise. I've never seen that one used, and if it was, I'd use knowledge or profession or craft or just intelligence.

[TheDarkOne]

Personally, I'm not satisfied with a skill system unless there are at least 50 different choices. How am I supposed to make a character without the ability to pick First Aid, Holistic Medicine, Paramedic, Medical Doctor, and pathology as separate skills? And what if I want to be able to read, but not speak or write a certain language? Or can you imagine if Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment were the same skill? It would be absolutely mad.

[Cedrass]

Personally, I'm not satisfied with a skill system unless there are at least 50 different choices. How am I supposed to make a character without the ability to pick First Aid, Holistic Medicine, Paramedic, Medical Doctor, and pathology as separate skills? And what if I want to be able to read, but not speak or write a certain language? Or can you imagine if Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment were the same skill? It would be absolutely mad.

...Is... That sarcasm?

[drakir_nosslin]

Personally, I'm not satisfied with a skill system unless there are at least 50 different choices. How am I supposed to make a character without the ability to pick First Aid, Holistic Medicine, Paramedic, Medical Doctor, and pathology as separate skills? And what if I want to be able to read, but not speak or write a certain language? Or can you imagine if Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment were the same skill? It would be absolutely mad.

Try EVE Online, it's like that, only with more skills...

[Toptomcat]

...Is... That sarcasm?

Some people really do like skill systems like that, hardcore GURPS-heads chief among them. And they can be fun if you're of the right mindset.

[HunterOfJello]

People created condensed skill lists because they saw this massive list:

* Appraise (Int)
* Autohypnosis (Wis)
* Balance (Dex)
* Bluff (Cha)
* Climb (Str)
* Concentration (Con)
* Control Shape (Wis)
* Craft (Int)
* Decipher Script (Int)
* Diplomacy (Cha)
* Disable Device (Int)
* Disguise (Cha)
* Escape Artist (Dex)
* Forgery (Int)
* Gather Information (Cha)
* Handle Animal (Cha)
* Heal (Wis)
* Hide (Dex)
* Intimidate (Cha)
* Jump (Str)
* Knowledge (arcana) (Int)
* Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int)
* Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int)
* Knowledge (geography) (Int)
* Knowledge (history) (Int)
* Knowledge (local) (Int)
* Knowledge (nature) (Int)
* Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int)
* Knowledge (psionics)(Int)
* Knowledge (religion) (Int)
* Knowledge (the planes) (Int)
* Listen (Wis)
* Move Silently (Dex)
* Open Lock (Dex)
* Perform (Cha)
* Psicraft (Int)
* Profession (Wis)
* Ride (Dex)
* Search (Int)
* Sense Motive (Wis)
* Sleight of Hand (Dex)
* Speak Language (none)
* Spellcraft (Int)
* Spot (Wis)
* Survival (Wis)
* Swim (Str)
* Tumble (Dex)
* Use Magic Device (Cha)
* Use Psionic Device (Cha)
* Use Rope (Dex)

(Which actually isn't fully complete!) And had to choose between 2 and 8 skill points into the entire list of choices.

[Foryn Gilnith]

(Which actually isn't fully complete!)

What is there to add besides Iaijutsu Focus, Martial Lore, and Truespeak?

[ericgrau]

People created condensed skill lists because they saw this massive list:
...
And had to choose between 2 and 8 skill points into the entire list of choices.

Ha you should have seen how huge the 2e nonweapon proficiency list was. Now pick 3. I think that was intentional so that PCs could be heroically good at a few interesting things, to give characters variation, yet without necessarily needing any skills. Not so they could roll DC 30 checks for everything and be borked if they didn't put max ranks in that skill.

[Koury]

What is there to add besides Iaijutsu Focus, Martial Lore, and Truespeak?

I'm pretty sure the point still stands.

[Mordokai]

I remember seeing Innuendo in the 3.0 PHB.

[Emmerask]

I personally like the role master skills there are about 150 or so? if I want to make a specific action I don´t have to substitute what I want to do with something that is somewhat similar but in actuality has nothing to do with it



Though with d&ds 6 skillpoints on avg / level it doesn´t make sense to have that many skills ^^

[Toptomcat]

What is there to add besides Iaijutsu Focus, Martial Lore, and Truespeak?

Lucid Dreaming, for one thing.

[Glimbur]

I remember seeing Innuendo in the 3.0 PHB.

I think you and I were seeing the same thing...

[Raum]

So why do you use condensed skill lists?

If the skill is not important to the game, there's no reason to have it on the character sheet. There's no more point to having a "Driving" skill in most fantasy games than a "Brawling" skill in a game of political intrigue.