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Thread: Why the condensed skill lists?
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2010-10-16, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Lemuria
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Why the condensed skill lists?
I've seen this in many games, people condensing hide and move silently into stealth, or jump and tumble into acrobatics, or climb and swim into athletics.
So why do you use (or not use) condensed skill lists?
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2010-10-16, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Because you get hilariously low skill points per level, the skills condensed are either worthless except very rarely, or always used together, and it helps out non magic classes more than magic classes.
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2010-10-16, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Department of Smiting
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2010-10-16, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Davis, California
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
That'd be because people rarely hide or move silently separately.
Jump is pretty much useless after the player's get fly. Tumble is always useful, but no so much at lower levels when you miss the skill check all the time. This way you get a skill that is useful all the time.
Climb and swim are together because they are so rarely used except in specific situations that might arise once in every campaign.
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2010-10-16, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I know one reason is that people just think some things are so interconnected it's silly to have one without the other.
Another reason is wanting to increase the ability to take more secondary skills.
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2010-10-16, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- in the playground.
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2010-10-16, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Runite
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Other option that I have considered but haven't implemented (yet) is increasing all classes SP (except full casters) by 50 %. thus fighters get 4 +int and rogues would get 12+int for example.
But I like the idea of condensing the skill list, it just makes sense somehow (a little problematic with some PRG class, but that is easily fixable)
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2010-10-16, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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- Somerville, MA
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I like condensed lists. They help ensure that there's a reasonable balance between everyday skills and esoteric ones. 4th ed is pretty good about this. While some skills are definitely more common than others, there isn't a single skill on the list that I've seen any GM neglect entirely. Unlike, say, Forgery in 3.5.
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2010-10-16, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Lemuria
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
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2010-10-16, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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2010-10-17, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
- Location
- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Well, as long as we're talking about this, I just officially (i.e. I wrote it down) instituted the following houserule: Intimidate and Diplomacy are now Persuasion; Listen and Spot are Perception; Hide and Move Silently are Stealth.
For on-topic reasoning: the first because they seem like different approaches to the same object, and aren't particularly mutually exclusive (i.e. any difference can be roleplayed, with appropriate consequences); the second takes into account such things as taste and smell and are often used together; and the last are almost never used separately.
Off-topic request: is this a good/decent idea?The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2010-10-17, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- here
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I tend to prefer condensed skill lists in 3.5. Especially for rogues, as there are so many "archetypal" rogue skills, and even 8+Int per level isn't enough to take all of them.
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2010-10-17, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Gender
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
It simplifies the mechanics, it makes sense, and it helps balance play a bit more. It also allows players to free up skill ranks for secondary skillsets.
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2010-10-17, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I've seen arguments of if I have one without the other, then another skill where people say you can be good at one without necessarily being good at the other. I was listening to a podcast of 4e D&D and one of the PCs was getting athletics and acrobatics mixed up. Then the DM (also a WotC author) said "No, you can only use athletics if you're jumping, climbing or swimming; tumbling or balance is acrobatics." Which wouldn't have been an issue if they just used 3e skills. Really I think it's to make things simpler during character generation, so you're not overwhelmed with options. And because while they don't necessarily get learned together, they tend to be and condensing makes it simpler to pick them. As for not having enough skill points, I've seen DMs simply give the PCs more skill points. So I don't think that's an issue. In my own system I make ranks cost double since there are a little under half as many skills.
Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-10-17 at 12:00 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-10-17, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-10-17, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2004
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- Enterprise, Alabama
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
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2010-10-17, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
The only thing I threw out was appraise. I've never seen that one used, and if it was, I'd use knowledge or profession or craft or just intelligence.
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2010-10-17, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Location
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Personally, I'm not satisfied with a skill system unless there are at least 50 different choices. How am I supposed to make a character without the ability to pick First Aid, Holistic Medicine, Paramedic, Medical Doctor, and pathology as separate skills? And what if I want to be able to read, but not speak or write a certain language? Or can you imagine if Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment were the same skill? It would be absolutely mad.
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2010-10-17, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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2010-10-17, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
- Location
- The cold north
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2010-10-17, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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2010-10-17, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- Elsewhen
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
People created condensed skill lists because they saw this massive list:
* Appraise (Int)
* Autohypnosis (Wis)
* Balance (Dex)
* Bluff (Cha)
* Climb (Str)
* Concentration (Con)
* Control Shape (Wis)
* Craft (Int)
* Decipher Script (Int)
* Diplomacy (Cha)
* Disable Device (Int)
* Disguise (Cha)
* Escape Artist (Dex)
* Forgery (Int)
* Gather Information (Cha)
* Handle Animal (Cha)
* Heal (Wis)
* Hide (Dex)
* Intimidate (Cha)
* Jump (Str)
* Knowledge (arcana) (Int)
* Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int)
* Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int)
* Knowledge (geography) (Int)
* Knowledge (history) (Int)
* Knowledge (local) (Int)
* Knowledge (nature) (Int)
* Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int)
* Knowledge (psionics)(Int)
* Knowledge (religion) (Int)
* Knowledge (the planes) (Int)
* Listen (Wis)
* Move Silently (Dex)
* Open Lock (Dex)
* Perform (Cha)
* Psicraft (Int)
* Profession (Wis)
* Ride (Dex)
* Search (Int)
* Sense Motive (Wis)
* Sleight of Hand (Dex)
* Speak Language (none)
* Spellcraft (Int)
* Spot (Wis)
* Survival (Wis)
* Swim (Str)
* Tumble (Dex)
* Use Magic Device (Cha)
* Use Psionic Device (Cha)
* Use Rope (Dex)
(Which actually isn't fully complete!) And had to choose between 2 and 8 skill points into the entire list of choices.
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2010-10-17, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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2010-10-17, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Ha you should have seen how huge the 2e nonweapon proficiency list was. Now pick 3. I think that was intentional so that PCs could be heroically good at a few interesting things, to give characters variation, yet without necessarily needing any skills. Not so they could roll DC 30 checks for everything and be borked if they didn't put max ranks in that skill.
Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-10-17 at 12:56 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-10-17, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Tacoma, WA
- Gender
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2010-10-17, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I remember seeing Innuendo in the 3.0 PHB.
Adrie, half elven bard. Drawing by Vulion, avatar by CheesePirate. Colored version by Callos_DeTerran. Thanks a lot, you guys.This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here."There will come a day so dark you will pray for death. On that day your prayers will be answered."Book of shadows, book of night, wake the beast and banish light.
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2010-10-17, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
I personally like the role master skills there are about 150 or so? if I want to make a specific action I don´t have to substitute what I want to do with something that is somewhat similar but in actuality has nothing to do with it
Though with d&ds 6 skillpoints on avg / level it doesn´t make sense to have that many skills ^^
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2010-10-17, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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2010-10-17, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- Midwest, not Middle East
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Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
Last edited by Glimbur; 2010-10-17 at 01:58 PM.
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2010-10-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
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- NC
Re: Why the condensed skill lists?
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