[4E] Hybrids

[Katana_Geldar]

I've recently started exploring them since i;m taking a break from the DMs chair, and it looks as if there's a real art to building them.

Mt favourite at the moment is the Wizard/Bard where I've taken Wizard of the Spiral Tower to stop swapping implements.

It does look like though it's not a good idea to use different power sources or different implements (or one class that uses them and the other doesn't).

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Nienna Feystar, level 11
Half-Elf, Wizard|Bard, Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Bard Armor Proficiency
Corellon's Implement: Wand
Background: Occupation - Entertainer (+2 to Bluff)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 13.


AC: 25 Fort: 17 Reflex: 21 Will: 20
HP: 65 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Diplomacy +16, History +14, Bluff +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +7, Heal +8, Insight +10, Intimidate +10, Nature +8, Perception +8, Religion +10, Stealth +6, Streetwise +10, Thievery +6, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Rousing Voice
Level 4: Ritual Caster
Level 6: Battle Caster Defense
Level 8: Distant Advantage
Level 10: Grounding Shot
Level 11: Versatile Master

POWERS
Dilettante: Lightning Lure
Hybrid at-will 1: Misdirected Mark
Hybrid at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Icy Terrain
Hybrid daily 1: Echoes of the Guardian
Hybrid utility 2: Moment of Escape
Hybrid encounter 3: Dissonant Strain
Hybrid daily 5: Acid Mire
Hybrid utility 6: Dispel Magic
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Bolt
Hybrid daily 9: Hymn of the Daring Rescue
Hybrid utility 10: Illusory Wall

ITEMS
Finemail of Transport +2, Harmonic Songblade Longsword +3, Gloves of Missile Avoidance (paragon tier), Light Shield, Fochlucan Bandore +1, Adventurer's Kit, Fine Clothing, Rare Herbs (Nature) (75), Alchemical Reagents (Arcana) (75), Mystic Salves (Heal) (75), Spellbook, Dagger
RITUALS
Dowsing Rod, Create Campsite, Comprehend Language, Purify Water, Traveler's Chant, Pyrotechnics, Water Walk, Affect Normal Fire, Detect Secret Doors, Enchant Magic Item, Knock, Transfer Enchantment, Magic Circle, Object Reading, Cure Disease, Preserve Flame, Sending, Anthem of Unity, Fey Passage, Snare, Tenser's Floating Disk
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Half-Elf also seems to shine with this as well as they're so versatile as a race, and Bard is such a natural fit to combine with a controller as they're secondary controllers anyway.

What are your own experiences?

[tcrudisi]

What are your own experiences?

In my experience, hybrids are either weak or powerful. It's hard to build one, but if you know how you can get a really good mixture of class abilities and powers that's truly amazing.

One of my favorite characters that I play is a hybrid defender (Fighter|Battlemind).

[WitchSlayer]

Definitely more difficult to build a hybrid, might actually be good for someone whose used to 3.5.

[RebelRogue]

They don't appeal much to me, personally (honestly, to me they felt a little like WotC trying to please the 3.5 grognards whining about the lack of 'tr00 multiclassing'), but they're not something I disallow in my own games. It does seem to me, like they're not all that easy to build well.

[Violet Octopus]

As someone planning to run a 4E adventure with his 3.5 group, learning there were now rules for Hybrids was a pleasant surprise. Even if I never actually use them, it's good to know the option is there.

I liked the original multiclassing rules too, given their context.

[Kurald Galain]

What are your own experiences?

My experience is that in almost all cases, the end result of a hybrid is worse than either of the base classes would have been by itself. I'm afraid that includes your example; a wizard/bard or bard/wizard multiclass would end up being more effective and frees up his paragon path to boot.

Hybrids are a nice puzzle for advanced players. However, they seem to attract mostly novice players: frequently, when we get a build request here for a first-time player, he has decided to start with a fighter|wizard hybrid or something equally unwieldy. In other words, it's one of the common Traps for new players.

[Meta]

Often terrible
Potentially greater than the sum of its parts

[Aron Times]

Hybrid characters can use implements from one of their classes for powers from the other class. Thus, a bard|wizard can use, for example, a staff for all his powers, even if the staff is only an implement for his wizard side.

[valadil]

I haven't made one yet, but I'm glad they exist. I let the bard in my game retrain to a rogue/bard. He can shine as a rogue or bard for one round each combat. Past that and the hybrid is underwhelming.

[Tengu_temp]

More often than not, hybrids are a trap. People take them because they want more options, but a hybrid does not actually let you do more in the actual gameplay, it just gives you a wider range of powers to choose from during character creation and advancement. If you stop looking at a hybrid as a multiclass character and consider what combination will let you lose least and gain most, then a hybrid character might be effective and fun. Otherwise, they often end up very weak.

[Sploosh]

I'm in agreement that hybrids are often traps, seducing players in with their enticing ocean of options and then drowning them.

I also like to play around with some though and my all time favorite build has to be a swordmage/warlock hybrid. The syngergy is pretty damn good, it works from the ground up.

I'm also trying a barbarian/fighter hybrid for a dark sun game that double dips axe and polearm feats with a gouge. It is basically a charger build like a standard barbarian but gets some fun toys like rain of blows.

[ghost_warlock]

I've been tinkering with the hybrid system and I've come across a couple builds that consider successful.

Hone is a battlemind|warden. Lots of defendery goodness, with the ability to continually mark 2-3 foes every round (sometimes more) while getting around the warden's restriction on marking only adjacent foes. Multiple ways to punish those who ignore a mark.

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== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ==
Hone, level 4
Goliath, Battlemind|Warden
Hybrid Warden: Hybrid Warden Will
Hybrid Talent: Warden's Armored Might
Guardian Might: Stormheart
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Axe)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Student of the Sword: Student of One-Handed Weapons
Background: Narfell (Narfell Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 19, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 22 Fort: 16 Reflex: 15 Will: 16
HP: 53 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +11, Athletics +10, Nature +10, Heal +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +3, History +1, Insight +3, Intimidate +2, Perception +3, Religion +1, Stealth, Streetwise +2, Thievery

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Student of the Sword

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Warden's Lunge
Hybrid at-will 1: Twisted Eye
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid daily 1: Form of Mountain's Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Hybrid at-will 3: Mind Snare (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid encounter 3: Burst of Earth's Fury

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Vengeful Longsword +1, Battle Harness Hide Armor +1, Talon Amulet +1, Shield of Protection Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Climber's Kit, Javelin (4), Sunrod (2)
== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ==

Gileal is a bard|warlord. Gets around being extremely MAD by careful power choice. Essentially an uber-healer but with a couple other tricks, too, such as misdirected mark.

Spoiler

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== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ==
Gileal Horasc, level 4
Half-Elf, Bard|Warlord
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Warlord Leadership: Canny Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will
Background: Occupation - Entertainer (+2 to Bluff)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16.


AC: 17 Fort: 15 Reflex: 15 Will: 19
HP: 41 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +13, Bluff +13, Arcana +9, History +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +5, Heal +5, Insight +9, Intimidate +7, Nature +5, Perception +7, Religion +5, Stealth +3, Streetwise +7, Thievery +3, Athletics +2

FEATS
Level 1: Word of the Ancestors
Level 2: Improved Inspiring Word
Level 4: Group Vigor

POWERS
Dilettante: Ire Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Misdirected Mark
Hybrid encounter 1: Provocative Order
Hybrid daily 1: Destructive Surprise
Hybrid utility 2: Song of Courage
Hybrid encounter 3: Unicorn's Charge

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Short sword, Adventurer's Kit, Potion of Healing (heroic tier), Lute, Disguise Kit, Sunrod (2), Healer's Brooch +1
== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ==

[CakeTown]

My only experience with a hybrid so far was in the first game I DMed. Before this, I had only played with the PHB1 and PHB2 classes in my regular game, so I didn't really know anything about hybrids.

Now, when I showed my friend, who had no experience with D&D, the list of classes, he decided he wanted to be a hybrid Cleric/Psion. I gave him the okay, and he started making his character. After he finished, he sent me his character sheet, but I didn't look at it.

So the first session rolled around, and we started the adventure. As we progressed, I noticed that my friend wasn't hitting very often. Eventually, I opened up his character sheet to find that his wisdom was very high, but his intelligence was awful. It was about 12. The worst part of it was that out of his 3 attacks(2 at will, 1 daily), only one was a cleric power. So basically 2 of his attacks were crap due to his horrible intelligence.

I managed to talk him out of playing another hybrid for my 2nd game.

So from my experience, they seem to be difficult to make effective. I agree with the other people saying that mixing power sources isn't a good idea, I think my player's character would have ended up better if he hadn't picked a psionic class.

[tcrudisi]

I tell all the new players at my tables not to play hybrids. It's not that I say "no", but rather I say, "Hybrids can be really good... once you know the system. Until then, I strongly advise you to stay away from them."

[Duos Greanleef]

I played a Fighter|Ranger for about 8 levels worth of a campaign.
With the Hybrid talent feat, you can get a beast companion, which bends it out a little bit.
It was a lot of fun. No I wasn't hitting as often as the avenger, but it was nice to be kind of defender-y with a bear to help mitigate some of the party's damage.

[1of3]

Hybrid characters can use implements from one of their classes for powers from the other class. Thus, a bard|wizard can use, for example, a staff for all his powers, even if the staff is only an implement for his wizard side.

In fact, with the latest revisions everyone can. Nowadays one is either proficient with an implement or isn't.

[holywhippet]

I have trouble enough choosing between the powers available for any single class, let alone picking powers from two different classes.

If you want a sampling of extra powers, take a bard and use their ability to grab as many multiclass feats as they want.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm in agreement that hybrids are often traps, seducing players in with their enticing ocean of options and then drowning them.

Yes. Also, given that you can only choose e.g. one encounter power at level 3, it doesn't really matter whether there's one best power and five lesser powers, or one best power and twenty lesser powers.

This, combined with the fact that hybrids get significantly weaker class features, means that unless you have a highly specific combo of feats or powers in mind, a hybrid will automatically be weaker than either base class.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I love hybrids but not all classes are made to hybrid is the thing.

For example Avengers make terrible hybrids. Where as warlocks and paladins don't.



Actualy used a warlock|paladin in game and it was alot of fun.... looking forward to playing a half elf battlemind|warlock in an upcoming game.

[Lost Demiurge]

To me, hybrids seem to be an option for flavor, something to toss in if you're not worried about power levels and being as good as your pure-class companions. They're best reserved for experienced players, as you CAN nerf yourself quite easily if you're not careful.

Hm. I wonder what a game with all hybrid characters would look like? If everyone's multiclassing, then you don't have to worry quite as much about power level...

[Reverent-One]

Yes. Also, given that you can only choose e.g. one encounter power at level 3, it doesn't really matter whether there's one best power and five lesser powers, or one best power and twenty lesser powers.

That depends on how much a min-maxer you are. A fun or thematic power can easily beat out a mechanically supieror one for someone who isn't focused on mechanical supieriority.

As for Hybrids, I enjoy them, it's fun to mix and match powers and class features. I really don't find hybrids that much more difficult to build an effective character with. For a non-hybrid, the only real concern you need to be effective is have at least a 16 in your prime stat at level 1 and boost it each chance you get. For hybrids, you need to 1) have least a 16 in your prime stat at level 1(not terribly difficult unless you racial boosts to neither stat) and boost them similarly to a non-hybrid, 2) be careful about what implements/weapons you need to use (which now gets eaiser thanks to the new ruling on implements), and 3) be careful about what armor you can wear.

[Kurald Galain]

To me, hybrids seem to be an option for flavor, something to toss in if you're not worried about power levels and being as good as your pure-class companions.

True, but it's just annoying that a pure fighter can mark on a basic attack, and a hybrid can't. Same thing for rogues and sneak attack.

[Reverent-One]

True, but it's just annoying that a pure fighter can mark on a basic attack, and a hybrid can't. Same thing for rogues and sneak attack.

This is the one thing about the Hybird rules that bug me, they were a little too careful in restricting combinations. I mean, for basic attacks they could have just stuck in a rule that whenever you use the the melee/ranged basic attack power, you can use class features from one of your two classes, chosen before you make the attack roll.

[Meta]

I love hybrids but not all classes are made to hybrid is the thing.

For example Avengers make terrible hybrids. Where as warlocks and paladins don't.



Actualy used a warlock|paladin in game and it was alot of fun.... looking forward to playing a half elf battlemind|warlock in an upcoming game.

Warlock, Paladin, and Avenger can all make successful hybrids. Especially given the legality of abusing distant vengeance (in ways that might not be RAI i admit)

[cdrcjsn]

One of the most successful hybrids I've seen was a Swordmage/Wizard combo. The wizard combo just lost him the ability to use cantrips and he gained a whole lot of Swordmagey goodness.

But in general, I agree with a lot of posters above that it is very easy for a new player to screw up a hybrid build.

But I really like one of my characters that I built: A Beastmaster Ranger/Druid with a Shaman Multi-class feat. He has a dragonling pet (reflavored raptor), shapeshifts into a dragon and has a dragon spirit companion.

His 12 Dex/Str means that he relies mostly on his Druid abilities and Beast Companion for attacks, but he's a fun character to play.

[Reverent-One]

But I really like one of my characters that I built: A Beastmaster Ranger/Druid with a Shaman Multi-class feat. He has a dragonling pet (reflavored raptor), shapeshifts into a dragon and has a dragon spirit companion.

Thief! You stole my Beastmaster Ranger/Druid MC Shaman character with drake pet that wildshapes into a drake!

His 12 Dex/Str means that he relies mostly on his Druid abilities and Beast Companion for attacks, but he's a fun character to play.

Why 12 strength? Wis and Str(or possibly Dex) should be the primary stats for such a character.

[Kurald Galain]

Warlock, Paladin, and Avenger can all make successful hybrids. Especially given the legality of abusing distant vengeance (in ways that might not be RAI i admit)

What abuse would that be?

One of the most successful hybrids I've seen was a Swordmage/Wizard combo. The wizard combo just lost him the ability to use cantrips and he gained a whole lot of Swordmagey goodness.

Yes. This used to be one of the top hybrid combinations, until Enlarge Spell got restricted to wizard spells only.

But I really like one of my characters that I built: A Beastmaster Ranger/Druid with a Shaman Multi-class feat.

I like this idea, primarily because I find animal companions fun but rangers terminally boring. A hybrid is the only way (so far) to get an animal companion on another class. My build was ranger|wizard with shaman multiclass, using wizard for summon spells and a familiar.

[Tiki Snakes]

Thief! You stole my Beastmaster Ranger/Druid MC Shaman character with drake pet that wildshapes into a drake!



Why 12 strength? Wis and Str(or possibly Dex) should be the primary stats for such a character.

the druid attacks are powered by Wis, the beastmaster side would mostly be attacking via the beast I'm guessing, meaning no call for str or dex, nor any real powers that call for it.

I built similar myself to play two wolves.
Admittedly, with the hybrid feature version of the companion, it kind of sucks at level 1, but it started to get better quite quickly with levels. Spent most of their time spitting locusts at things, in the end. Nice at-will power, hilarious mental image.

[Reverent-One]

the druid attacks are powered by Wis, the beastmaster side would mostly be attacking via the beast I'm guessing, meaning no call for str or dex, nor any real powers that call for it.

I built similar myself to play two wolves.
Admittedly, with the hybrid feature version of the companion, it kind of sucks at level 1, but it started to get better quite quickly with levels. Spent most of their time spitting locusts at things, in the end. Nice at-will power, hilarious mental image.

The thing is, last I checked, very few beastmaster ranger powers past that one at-will simply have your companion attack by itself. They usually include you making some sort of attack as well.

[Tiki Snakes]

The thing is, last I checked, very few beastmaster ranger powers past that one at-will simply have your companion attack by itself. They usually include you making some sort of attack as well.

I managed to build up a fair way by going for ones that gave melee basic, then used the druid at-wills that counted as melee basic.

I'm not sure how high I could have built it without issue, but for how low level the campaign was, it wasn't too daunting.