[3.5] Gestalting Tier 5-6 to make new classes?

[Hawk7915]

Apologies if this should be in homebrew, but I thought this was the best spot as it's more "house rules" than "Homebrew". This is inspired by the "What would it take to make a top tier melee?" thread and the Tier System in general.

You're trying to make a more balanced "Player's Handbook" for your playgroup. Let's say (sake of argument) that you are absolutely including Bard, Cleric, Wizard, and Druid (you are banning feats, changing some class features, and nerfing/banning spells to get the uber-casters down to T2-3). You can't include Tome of Battle, and you need at least 8 more character classes. Even though the "core" book you're crafting won't have Tome of Battle, any meleers in it need to be able to be within a tier of the Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage in case the game calls for those classes. What do you include?

One common bit of advice with the tier system is to let the lower tiers Gestalt with each other to give them more variety and/or make them better at their job. So my solution would be to try to get the best crunch/fluff combos I can by combining the lower tiers with higher ones. Some obvious standouts include...

The Captain/Commander/Warlord/Fighter: - Gestalt Marshal/Fighter, with Dungeoncrasher being mandatory. This feels like what a Fighter should have been, to me. Still boasts a ton of dead levels and no strong incentive to stick with the class past 6 or 8, but suddenly you have a great warrior who's also a team player and can even do some skill-monkeying thanks to his incredible skill list (has all knowledges, all social skills, spot, listen, and can add his CHA to any of them if he wants too).

The Hunter: Gestalt Scout/Ranger. Low HD, but great skills, tons of bonus feats, interesting combat styles (that both benefit from Skirmish dice), minor spellcasting, and an animal companion.

The Scoundrel: Gestalt Swashbuckler/Rogue. Almost a "Lightning Warrior", with two good saves, d10 HD, full BAB, 8 skills/level, an amazing class skill list, and decent class features. Only limited by his crummy proficiencies (and lack of casting, obviously, and utter reliance on full attack actions).

The Paladin/Guardian/Templar: Gestalt Paladin/Knight, possibly with a house rule to allow casting to be Charsima-based. A true tank class with a mountain of class features, although he's still a bit one-trick and he has a really restrictive code of honor.

So here's the questions...

1) Do the above classes feel like they'd be tier 3? Tier 2, even? Why or why not? What else do they need?

2) That's 8 classes; what do you do for the last 4? Cheat and go for Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Sorcerer, and Duskblade? Or do you gestalt more lower tiers?

3) Related to above, what other gestalts "Feel" like a real class out of the box? Some of the ones I thought of but am unsure of are...

- The Priest: Healer/Expert
- The Dragon Warrior: Dragon Shaman/Samurai or Dragon Shaman/Warrior
- The Shaman: Dragon Shaman/Adept; possible houserule for Touch to be Wisdom; or casting to be Charisma-based
- The Sage: Ninja/Monk.
- The Stalker: Ninja/Warlock, possible houserule for Ki to be Charisma, or invocations to be Wisdom.
- The Berserker: Barbarian/Samurai, probably just dropping the Daisho stuff entirely.
- The Warmage: Warrior/Warmage; isn't this just a bad duskblade? Still an option especially if you are including the Beguiler and Dread Necro as other spontaneous arcane casters instead of sorcerer.

Thoughts?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I kinda like this idea.

Might not use it in my group for a bit, at least not until the others catch up to me in terms of optimization, but it sounds like it could work well for those of us in the party who prefer martial characters (which is most of us.)

[Pechvarry]

I've thought about this some, before. M-bark (I think) once suggested deleting Samurai and giving his only real class features (the 3 fear-type abilities) to Knight. I like it because I like the idea of a righteous warrior's commanding presence dominating the field.

One gestalt combo I like is actually Marshal/Paladin. It just seems right, and has good Cha synergy. I also like the idea of offering players the ability to base paladin casting off cha. By the same token, I like offering Rangers Int-based casting.

Not quite gestalting, but I also like giving Spell-thieves the full assassin spell list.

[WarKitty]

Depends on the class. As a general rule, the class should have at least one show-stopping ability when they get to use it.

[ErrantX]

Conceptually I'm all about this, I just don't think you need to limit it to a few classes; let the players come up with complementary classes and have at it. Paladin and Knight, Knight and Marshall, Marshall and Dragon Shaman, etc etc.. Just so long as alignment wise and conceptually speaking they fit. (No Paladin/Warlocks, for example).

-X

[Lans]

I like the soulborn/blade with allowance of letting it invest essentia into the blade to let it be a +9 weapon at 20th level.

[Tvtyrant]

I like Warlock/Rogue~Assasin prestige. Sneak attack, infi-rays, casting.

[Dark_Nohn]

Not sure I'd consider your Warmage/Warrior worse than a duskblade... you get feat tax for wearing heavier armors, but the warrior bonus feats soaks that up quite nicely, plus having access to 9th level spells makes this more viable than usual, as it lets you metamagic easier than usual, and saying such for your Warmage class, I'd add that you can select metamagic feats as fighter bonus feats.

As for your Stalker class use of houseruling Cha to Wis or Wis to Cha, you don't lose much by dumpstating Cha on a warlock, unless you're using a lot of save-DC invocations, which those that are save-DC due to AoE lose their sudden strike ability, and you don't need a high Cha just to be able to use invocations, and the one Save-DC worthy invocation is Utterdark Blast, which the DC doesn't matter until the next day. On the other hand, 5 ability MAD is just ridiculous, so I can see your point, (even though for this class to work you really just need Dex, Wis, and maybe Con.)

I think Hexblade//Warlock would be a more fluffable combination, I'm not saying so much of as an "instead" as maybe an "also." A few more combinations that I think might work well would be healer//monk, and Spirit Shaman//Barbarian. Yes, a Spirit Shaman does get a druid's spell list, and a good way to cast it, but without wildshape or an animal companion, and some weird variation of turning undead. Also the Spirit Shaman is not Tiered.

[Cespenar]

A Monk//Adept would perhaps be not as powerful as some of the other combinations, but it could be fun.

Or perhaps, a Warrior//Expert//Adept?

[Urpriest]

Not sure I'd consider your Warmage/Warrior worse than a duskblade... you get feat tax for wearing heavier armors, but the warrior bonus feats soaks that up quite nicely, plus having access to 9th level spells makes this more viable than usual, as it lets you metamagic easier than usual, and saying such for your Warmage class, I'd add that you can select metamagic feats as fighter bonus feats.

Wrong Warrior. UA Warrior is more obscure, and since he's using NPC classes for the others, best to assume that's the one meant here.

[Psyren]

Concerning Templar - no need for a houserule, just use the Pathfinder Paladin and gestalt that with the Knight.

Soulknife//Soulborn is another great low-tier combo. Shugenja//Samurai could be interesting, though I don't know what you'd call it. (Onmyoji?)

[Dark_Nohn]

Wrong Warrior. UA Warrior is more obscure, and since he's using NPC classes for the others, best to assume that's the one meant here.

Oof, my bad, I always get Warrior and Fighter confused, as Warrior sounds like a more strong title than Fighter.

[Psyren]

Oof, my bad, I always get Warrior and Fighter confused, as Warrior sounds like a more strong title than Fighter.

Expert and Adept sound pretty competent too.

Oh those wacky NPCs