[3.5] Ghasts vs Walls

[Nich_Critic]

I'm currently Dm of a campaign. Right now they are trying to stop a zombie infection in a small town. The next encounter calls for some generic undead, plus a couple of ghasts to liven things up.

The problem is, I have a player playing a psion with the "up the walls" feet. For the people who don't know psionics, basically he can run up vertical surfaces with impunity, as long as he ends his movement horizontally. He's been using it to get on top of roofs, allowing no chance for my mindless zombies to come get him.

For the next encounter, I was thinking of giving one or more of the ghasts either:
a) a climb speed, so that they can more easily keep up with him, or
b) The ability to become psionically focused and use the same feat he does, to even the playing field, or
c) Spider climb as an at will ability

Any one of the 3 would do what I want, that is, allow my creatures to get at the psion, so that he can't just camp on the roof. That said, I have a couple of questions.

1) What would adding each of the abilities a, b, or c, do to the CR of the encounter?

2) Is it even a good idea to do this? It might screw the player over. Plus, it feels a bit like punishing success, which I don't think is cool. However, the fact that he's more or less safe from anything while in town hampers and sense of horror I might be trying to instill.

3) Should I just let the player do this, knowing that the feat is unlikely to be as useful down the road (as they move out of the town and begin to fight in the wilderness/dungeons?). Or, in other words, let him have his fun while it lasts?

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm currently Dm of a campaign. Right now they are trying to stop a zombie infection in a small town. The next encounter calls for some generic undead, plus a couple of ghasts to liven things up.

The problem is, I have a player playing a psion with the "up the walls" feet. For the people who don't know psionics, basically he can run up vertical surfaces with impunity, as long as he ends his movement horizontally. He's been using it to get on top of roofs, allowing no chance for my mindless zombies to come get him.

For the next encounter, I was thinking of giving one or more of the ghasts either:
a) a climb speed, so that they can more easily keep up with him, or
b) The ability to become psionically focused and use the same feat he does, to even the playing field, or
c) Spider climb as an at will ability

Any one of the 3 would do what I want, that is, allow my creatures to get at the psion, so that he can't just camp on the roof. That said, I have a couple of questions.

1) What would adding each of the abilities a, b, or c, do to the CR of the encounter?

2) Is it even a good idea to do this? It might screw the player over. Plus, it feels a bit like punishing success, which I don't think is cool. However, the fact that he's more or less safe from anything while in town hampers and sense of horror I might be trying to instill.

3) Should I just let the player do this, knowing that the feat is unlikely to be as useful down the road (as they move out of the town and begin to fight in the wilderness/dungeons?). Or, in other words, let him have his fun while it lasts?

Personally, I'd say number three or number one by adding some levels of Psychic Warrior to one of the Ghasts so it can get the feat and to give the Psion an interesting solo opponent. It seems like everyone's kind of low level since no one else is doing it though, so this may be too difficult a fight, particularly if the Psion relies on Mind-Affecting powers. On the other hand it is easier to work out the increase in CR (for Wee Jas' sake count the levels as associated!).

[Crafty Cultist]

Giving the monsters extra abilities to counter the players capabilities seems a little unfair to me. you should try different tactics before resorting to customizing your monsters

The mindless undead could try to swarm their way onto the roofs by using their fellows as a ramp. Just use the aid another mechanic to their climb check. alternatively, they could enter the buildings, climb into the attack and then break through the roof. They could also try to force the player to the ground using bull rush attacks. Mindless doesn't mean no ability to adapt, it just makes them single minded and unrelenting with no long term plans

Edit: if you want the ghasts to climb, a level of warlock with the spider walk invocation would do nicely.

[Arbitrarity]

Every time people get specifically countered (I had a spiked chain tripper who was countered by "lol 100 orcs surround you and 5 ft step so you can't AOO") it says "the DM is cheating to counter you" This feels unfair, and tends to be adversarial.
I have a question: How high are the buildings, and how are they constructed?
Putting Zombies emerging onto the roof, or climbing other sides of the building can be threatening, as can a larger zombie who can reach the roof. Particularly since you can afford to put a lot of zombies in, what with the tactical disadvantage of trying to get someone on the roof.

Slow climb speeds aren't exactly unreasonable though.

[dsmiles]

I'd go with A, and I don't think it would be a huge impact on the CR of the ghast, either.

[Vonotar]

Personally I think I'd remove him from his comfort zone if possible. Throw some plot at the players, there's a necromancer/intelligent undead around and they're going to buzz the walls with spells/catapults. This is bad news, better ride out and take them down (plus minions) before they get the chance!

[Calmar]

So he runs up some building wall, positions himself on the roof and starts shooting your undead from save distance (I suppose)?

Well... how do the houses in this small town look like?

Are the buildings wooden peasant huts? Maybe the roofs aren't always strong enough to carry a person and collapse from time to time when someone walks them.
Typical ghasts are quite smart (13 Int and 14 Wis). You should definitely allow them to employ smart strategies - maybe let them break some beams that carry the roof in order to help it collapse. Or let them throw some torches and burn the whole building and the psion to a crisp.

Are the buildings solid houses? The ghasts and their zombie-companions should be able to simply walk up the stairs and access the roof through the rooflights. Or let them throw some torches and burn the building and the psion to a crisp!

Moreover, while he plays hide and seek on some rooftop he leaves his party alone on the streets. Let him watch his friends being surrounded by the undead and attacked from all sides. Depending on his level and build, he'll run out of tricks sooner or later, alone... and then the ghasts crawl upon the roof. Or the flames, because someone threw a torch into the building.

A DM must punish the players for splitting the party, doesn't he?

[Cyrion]

Is the character equipped to go toe to toe with a ghast (either to beat it outright or get away in a hurry)? If so, then a climbing ghast will be a good surprise for him. He's used his tactic to good effect a few times, and will have the opportunity to do it again.

You're not punishing the character if you challenge him. You would be punishing him if every zombie or ghast he encounters from here on out can climb after him. Just gauge the encounter to be a challenge instead of a kill.

[NelKor]

Skeletons are proficient with bows and crossbows. this may be a better option then giving the ghasts a climb speed. Alternatively you could use a vampire spawn thats only 1 CR higher they have a continous spider climb.

[Lysander]

Ghouls and ghasts have ranks in climb. Just make the houses relatively easy to climb with normal climb checks so they can all follow him. He's faster so make sure they can swarm him from multiple directions. And last I checked, climb is based on STR and can be attempted untrained, so even a mindless zombie or skeleton could theoretically try to climb up towards prey.

[Ernir]

No need for Climb speeds or Spider Climb. Just make them use the Climb skill, it works.

Of course, some will be picked off while they are crawling up, but that's easy. Add more undead. Less cheesy than hard-countering.

[Malbordeus]

or have a ghast... with wings.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd say just give them ranged weapons. Ghasts are intelligent and proficient in them, and can direct the mindless yet proficient undead to shoot at an out-of-reach target.

[Mordaenor]

How about a magic item? Give one Ghast a Ring of Spider-climb. That way when its defeated, you get a little extra reward.

[Susano-wo]

I am personally likeing the idea of a psychic ghast. makes for a cool and menacing thug to fight at least :P

[Fhaolan]

I agree with the just regular climb checks. A lot of DMs forget that pretty much *anything* can use the climb skill. It's slower than for something with a climb speed, but it still works.

Also I agree with the statement that Ghasts aren't mindless. If they figure out that their prey is using specific tactics against them, they will retreat and work out a plan against that prey, such as setting up rooftop ambuses.

Think like a wolf pack. When timber wolves go after elk and the like, they concentrate on one individual and chase them. Because elk have better running stamina than they do, individual wolves will drop out of the chase when they get tired, to be replaced by other pack members who were deliberately staged along the path they predicted/manipulated the prey to run down. Usually this path is curved so that when the prey is fully exhausted, the wolves that started the process have caught up by cutting the arc and are reasonably rested.

With Ghasts, once they realize that there is a wall-walker, they might control the zombies to get them to climb and stage themselves on certain rooftops in anticipation. This is not to take the wall-walker down, but so that he can't just stop anywhere he feels like. He has to keep moving, and if the ghasts planned it right once he's run out, the ghasts will spring the real ambush.

Now this is the opportunity for the rest of the party to get involved, so it's not a one-man show. The idea is not to overwhelm the wall-walker, but to challenge him so that he has to work with the rest of the party to achieve the desired goal.

[Thurbane]

Maybe look at throwing a couple of shadows or other flying undead into the mix?

[Psyren]

I agree wiith Glyphstone and Thurbane; throw in some flying/incorporeal undead, and give the Ghasts ranged weapons if their quarry moves out of reach.

I'm a fan of "soft counters" - i.e. a counter that is not specifically designed to elminate a PC's strengths, but rather one that is reasonable and still beatable.

[Calmar]

I suppose Nich_Critic chose only ghasts besides common zombies, because other undead wouldn't fit the 'zombie-apocalypse'-flair.

[AslanCross]

Ghasts have a +9 Climb modifier. That should allow them to get up fine.

[Yora]

I would go with giving some ghast a very good climb modifier. I don't see any need for magic or psionics for them to do it, as it fits perfectly with the theme of gaunt, agile, and fast undead.

Though I usually don't support making encounters exactly tailored so one player can't use his characters strength, in this case I really encourage it. But do it in moderation. While most of the monsters involved in the encounters still fall to his favored tactic, have two or three of them chase after him onto the roofs. He should still be able to handle it, but also learn that he can't rely on the same trick over and over again. This will hopefully encourage him to think of different tactics as well.

And I don't think this should alter the encounters CR. Supposed the CR system would work, it assumes that the players don't have a tactical advantage. Which your player obviously has all the time.

[Susano-wo]

the nice thing about, say, making them psionic, or good[-er] climbers, is it doesn't counter him, per se, as it would be useful in multiple situations, and one of those happens to be evading the slower dumb zombies.

[DeltaEmil]

Having a horde of undead trying to climb up (some straggling and falling down of course) is thematically more fun and still makes your player think that it's fair.

[Eldan]

If you have straw or wooden roofs... let the ghasts throw torches. Alternatively, they could jump.

[AslanCross]

To add to my post above:
Ghasts can make an accelerated climb check (+4 modifier) to climb 15 feet per check, assuming the building walls are only a DC 10 check to climb. That's really not so bad, especially if the psychic guy gets trapped on top of a building.

There is no pressing need to give the ghasts climb speed, spider climb, or even psionics.

[BeholderSlayer]

Have all the nearby buildings be ON FIRE!!! (I am on a fire binge right now for some reason...maybe it's because I read Frank & K's Fire Mage the other day).

[Psyren]

I agree that psionic ghasts are silly. You could give them the phrenic template I suppose but that would make them pretty powerful and too obvious a counter.

[Synapse]

I'll summarize the central idea of giving him rooftop zombies without customizing.

1) Ghasts are smart. Smarter than most commoners/warriors/experts will ever be. This means they can plan ahead and know when a recurring tactic is hampering them.
2) The environment is your weapon just as much as the monsters. Not all rooftops can hold his weight. Not all walls are in shape to climb/run, being too tall or too tight.

So there are a few tricks
-There already are zombies at the roof. Works well if stairs and neighbor buildings lead directly to it.
-Ghasts can lead ranged attacks or climb themselves, instructing zombies to follow. Their climb checks are good!
-Ghasts can also lead the psionic to a place he can't Up, like a tight space or an open square.
-They can also just wait. If the psionic is up there flinging spells and ranged attacks, eventually the ammo will be gone. Stalking here and there and he loses his night's sleep to recover PP (bonus for being a creepy thing appropriate to the setting)

[Lord Vukodlak]

If its a simple wooden building a dozen zombies might just knock down a wall, taking the building with it. He's now prone and the horde is all around him.

[Lev]

If you think you're safe on a roof while there is undead around, you obviously have never played Left 4 Dead.

If you want undead to have a chance, don't give them a 40' horizontal stone tower that they can grease the outsides of. Undead WILL climb up a building, regardless.


Here's some crunch:

Let's say you have a building, if it's a fantasy campaign it's MOST LIKELY that your buildings are going to be made of: wood frame + wattle + daub. For undead, who are essentially untirable humans on PCP, this just means punching holes in the walls with your hands as you climb, the roof is either made of shingles or thatch, both of which can be torn through, thatch is a superior material for building in terms of technology, the problem is that it burns easy, carries insects and takes a LONG time to make. I recommend thatch, because it burns easy and burning roofs make for VERY nice imagery.

Numbers-
If your buildings have a DC23 to climb, and there are 20 undead around you with 16 strength, 1 is going to make it onto the roof every round, the others will fall off, so you can't exactly ready actions until they are on the roof cuz you never know which ones will make it.
For every DC below that natural 20 mark to hit, you will get 1 more undead for every 20 undead on the roof, this gives you a fairly consistent rate of flow, though give your players some slack.

Even if your buildings are hard to climb, and the players start setting up camp on a roof, they will for sure bust the roof open if not start crawling through multiple holes they can burrow through the thatch or slam open the shingles.

If they hide in a building, start getting the undead to come through the walls, walls in a fantasy environment, unless in a stone hut, are fairly soft and even a human with 10 strength can bore a hole in it in a matter of rounds.