Greatest crit range you can get

[Dr.Epic]

How great (great meaning 20 to the lowest number possible) can you get your crit range in 3.5? It can be with any weapon. I'm just wondering because I might want to build a character around that.

[Mongoose87]

With the Disciple of Dispaater, and Ipmroved Critical, I think 9-20 is within reach.

[Nanoblack]

Yeah that's about as far as you can get. Most crit range enhancements don't stack, but Disciple of Dispater explicitly states it stacks.

[chormin]

Start with a wide range on a base weapon. (18-20) 3

Disciple of Dispater 8 gives keen twice with iron or steel weapons, which doesnt stack with keen enchantment. (12-20) 9

It does stack with Improved critical. (9-20) 12

And with better lucky than good [or is it skilled? one of them] you can switch a 1 for a twenty (1)+(9-20) 13

[John Campbell]

The Disciple of Dispater is not 3.5.

[agahii]

not updated though, so it counts I think.

[olelia]

The Disciple of Dispater is not 3.5.

Your point?

[hamishspence]

Some things (the class skills) might need slight modification, if skills that no longer exist are on the class skill list.

Such as: Read Lips, Intuit Direction, Innuendo, Scry.

[Heliomance]

Oriental Adventures Kensai lets you get it to 7-20 IIRC

[Kalaska'Agathas]

How's that?

[Katana_Geldar]

The girl in the second gamers movie had a series of stacking feats that inproved her crit range, as well as getting another attack when she critted. I forget what they were, but she was the most effective combatant in the entire group, and it was her first session!

[Heliomance]

How's that?

Adds another +2 to the range if you already have Improved Crit.

The girl in the second gamers movie had a series of stacking feats that inproved her crit range, as well as getting another attack when she critted. I forget what they were, but she was the most effective combatant in the entire group, and it was her first session!

Yeah, most to all of those feats were made up for the film.

[Mongoose87]

The girl in the second gamers movie had a series of stacking feats that inproved her crit range, as well as getting another attack when she critted. I forget what they were, but she was the most effective combatant in the entire group, and it was her first session!

She has at least one made up feat, and IIRC, another that doesn't do what she says. She also made STR her dump stat, IIRC *facepalm*.

[ericgrau]

not updated though, so it counts I think.

3.5 got rid of a lot of crit range stacking tho so that probably applies.

[Katana_Geldar]

Yeah, most to all of those feats were made up for the film.

Well, shows how much I know about 3.5 then.

[Mongoose87]

3.5 got rid of a lot of crit range stacking tho so that probably applies.

Except that Disciple of Dispaater, being quasi-"3.25E" specifically calls out Improved Critical as stacking with it.

[ericgrau]

I think improved critical used to stack with other things too though.

[Fjolnir]

Isn't the rule "If it hasn't been updated, then it's legal?"

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I do believe it is, Fjolnir.

[Mongoose87]

I think improved critical used to stack with other things too though.

It used to stack with Keen, IIRC, and Vorpal, in a way. However, the rule is specific trumps general, and since this specifically calls out stacking with Improved Critical, I'm inclined to think it does.

EDIT: Also note that it says it does not stack with Keen. Even more specific.

[ericgrau]

What else was there in core besides keen and improved critical? Other books might only be taking the same logic one step further.

I'm not so sure specific 3.0 trumps general 3.5. Not so sure it doesn't either though. A 3.5 example of crit range stacking would better reinforce the logic behind dissipater stacking.

[Curmudgeon]

Except that Disciple of Dispaater, being quasi-"3.25E" specifically calls out Improved Critical as stacking with it.

Anything outside the 3.5 core rules gets overridden if there's a disagreement, according to WotC's Primary Sources Errata rule:

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

So the 3.5 Improved Critical limitation from the Player's Handbook primary source is correct:

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

and so is the 3.5 keen limitation from the Dungeon Master's Guide:

This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).

Isn't the rule "If it hasn't been updated, then it's legal?"

Not quite. From page 4 of the 3.5 DMG:

This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

Those minor adjustments obviously include following rules like Primary Sources. If the Disciple of Dispater had an update after the 3.5 books came out, then it would be a legal exception. Since it was written before those 3.5 rules, it can't be an exception to rules that hadn't existed yet. This one doesn't fly in 3.5.

[Thurbane]

Another source of crit-stacking is the special ability that a Mythic Exemplar can get from Sunyarta. I believe it increases crit range by one, and is called out to be stackable. Only limited use/day, however...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A 3.5 Psychic Weapon Master who already has Improved Crit can get another +2 to the threat range. Since you can add your own bonuses in the most beneficial order, a Falchion would become 16-20 (5 numbers) via that bonus, then it would be doubled for Improved Crit to 11-20 (10 numbers). It requires that you wield a weapon made from psionic crystal, which happens to count as being made from metal.

Considering you would need Disciple of Dispater 8 after a +6 BAB prerequisite, and Psychic Weapon Master 7 after prerequisites so steep they cannot be met prior to 7th level, you cannot include both in a 20-level non-gestalt build. You could include Disciple of Dispater 4 and Psychic Weapon Master 7 in the same build, assuming it would all combine in the most favorable way, to get a threat range of 6-20 (15 numbers). In a gestalt game, you could go something like Psion 5//Fighter 2/Warblade 3, then go Psychic Weapon Master 7//Psion and Warblade staggered to maximize manifester level, and end with Psion 8//Disciple of Dispater 8, to get a threat range of 1-20, plus you would add your Int bonus to the followup roll to confirm. Note that Disciple of Dispater specifies an iron or steel weapon, rather than just a metal weapon, so it's doubtful whether it would work with a psionic crystal weapon. You could always just carry around a steel version of your weapon of choice for the higher threat range, though your bonded crystal weapon may get a bit jealous.

[*.*.*.*]

threat range of 1-20,

Ouchies

[Mongoose87]

You could always just carry around a steel version of your weapon of choice for the higher threat range, though your bonded crystal weapon may get a bit jealous.

Dual-wield?

[Esser-Z]

Too bad threats don't autohit. But still. 1-20. Ouch.

[dgnslyr]

Wow, if that works, then get a pair of +1 Aptitude Kukris, Lightning Maces feat, and get a nigh-infinite number of attacks.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Wow, if that works, then get a pair of +1 Aptitude Kukris, Lightning Maces feat, and get a nigh-infinite number of attacks.

Pick up Double-Hit (make two AoOs each time someone provokes while you wield double weapons) and I believe the number of attacks from a threat range of 1-20 isn't nigh-infinite, it is infinite. The series diverges as the limit of attacks made approaches infinity. Fun times.


Also, another method: Nimblewrights (MM2) have a natural threat range of 15-20 with their rapier-hands. Improved Critical puts that at 9-20, Disciple of Dispater puts that at 3-20. That's the best you can do pre-epic, as nimblewrights have 10 RHD and +6 LA, so you only get the first DoD boost.

[LordBlades]

Also, another method: Nimblewrights (MM2) have a natural threat range of 15-20 with their rapier-hands. Improved Critical puts that at 9-20, Disciple of Dispater puts that at 3-20. That's the best you can do pre-epic, as nimblewrights have 10 RHD and +6 LA, so you only get the first DoD boost.

Don't have MM2 acess atm, but what kind of ability is that? Namely, do you get it if you polymorph into a nimblewright? Because if you do, you can always go warforged (so you can polymorph into constructs) wizard 7/disciple of dispater 7/whatever 6 (recommend warblade for blood in the water) to acess the 2nd DoD boost.