Poison Using Master Thrower

[falcon36]

As the title suggests, a Master Thrower that uses poisoned weapons. He has a summoner buddy who makes the poisons for him so we don't have to worry about that.

I was wondering how to go about making the thrower at a low enough level that would keep poisons the most effective. Say starting level 6 or 7.

I only have access to Completes, SRD, and UA. No Psionics and the race is human.

I'm really not even sure how to go about starting a Master Thrower class.

EDIT: If I had access to ToB for Bloodstorm Blade and minimum entry requirements for that class, how would this change?

[The_Scourge]

Rogue is a good entry class, your lower BAB will matter less one you get the capstone ability, or fighter if you want to invest some feats in things other than pre-reqs.
If you can get your DM to allow pathfinder. Master thrower synergizes nicely with thrown weapons because of his bombs and he can use his alchemy abilities to craft and improve poisons.

EDIT: a link for the alchemist http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist

[SurlySeraph]

A level in Rogue for the Sleight of Hand ranks is usual for going into Master Thrower, though you can get 4 cross-class ranks with a full BAB class at 5th level if you want to enter as early as possible.

Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Master Thrower 1, using Daring Outlaw, works well. Insightful Strike probably applies to thrown light weapons, though your DM might rule otherwise.

Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2 is a slightly earlier entry. Feats: you get Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw for free, you need to take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus, and you have 3 feats free. I'd definitely take Rapid Shot, Knowledge Devotion is a good way to improve your attacks, and Education is a 1st-level-only feat that makes all Knowledges class skills, which is excellent with Knowledge Devotion.

You'll want either Poison Use or an easy way to avoid being poisoned. The Assassination weapon enhancement, from the Cityscape web enhancement, is a good one; you can put it darts or other ammunition to save on cost. Otherwise, pick up a level in Assassin or get high saves vs. poison.

[falcon36]

If I were to use the Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 2, I'm guessing the character should focus on dex and int?

Also, I've always wondered about the Thrower. How does he do a full attack? Say he took Rapid Shot and Palm Throw at +6 BAB. That would give him 2 normal attacks at +4/-1 and then a Rapid Shot attack at +4. This means he needs 6 things to throw right? So if he has, for example, 6 daggers on his belt, he can throw all 6 of them.

What happens with the Returning Property though? the DMG says the Returning weapon is ready to use again in that turn. Does that mean I can just have 2 Returning daggers and still make all three attacks? (Since Palm Throw throws 2 things at once).

Also, what's the range of a throwing dagger? It says 10ft in PHB which makes me wonder if I can only throw things from 10 ft away

[Eloel]

Also, what's the range of a throwing dagger? It says 10ft in PHB which makes me wonder if I can only throw things from 10 ft away

10ft range increments. For thrown weapons, maximum range is 5 increments. (so, 50ft) You get -1 (or was it -2?) to attack rolls for every increment beyond the first.

[Salanmander]

For getting poison use, it may be worth considering being a poison dusk lizardfolk (monster manual 3), if that would be appropriate for the campaign, rather than taking a level in assassin. It's LA +1 (so, takes up the same space as an assassin level, but does so at level 1), and nets you small size with a 30 ft. move speed, natural attacks, natural armor, and poison use. I forget what it's stat modifiers are, but I believe it has at least a penalty to str and a bonus to dex, which is just peachy for a master thrower.

So, compared to an assassin level, you lose one hit die, some saves (which is unfortunate), and the useless-when-dipping death attack, and gain at least +2 to-hit (if you were medium before), +2 AC, and natural attacks. Plus you get poison use from the very beginning.

EDIT: They're better than I remembered. +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha for stat modifiers, their natural armor is +3, and they get some nifty incidental bonuses (like +5 to hide when their skin is mostly visible).

[SurlySeraph]

There's also Jungle Halfling, for LA +0, free Poison Use, and the halfling throwing bonus. Pity you can't combine it with Strongheart Halfling to get a bonus feat as well.

[Curmudgeon]

Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Master Thrower 1, using Daring Outlaw, works well.

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with Rogue + Sneak Attack Fighter. Each of them gets the same sneak attack ability, which doesn't include language allowing it to stack. Similarly, Daring Outlaw only lets Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack ─ not Fighter levels. You would need to add another class with sneak attack, which includes language allowing it to stack with all other sources, to get any benefit from the sneak attack Fighter.

[SurlySeraph]

I don't agree with that interpretation of the ruling that abilities with the same name don't stack, and it's the first time I've seen it interpreted that way. It's certainly more reasonable than something like saying that a Fighter 2/ Martial Rogue 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Monk 2 would have the same number and selection of bonus feats as a Fighter 8, but I still disagree with it.

[Akal Saris]

In Completes, core, and UA, I believe these are the options for poison use:

Jungle Halfling
Assassin 1
Blackguard 1 or 2
Ninja 2

Personally, I'd go for a Jungle Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower, grabbing Deadeye Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Shot.

Jungle Halfling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 5/Swaskbuckler +9
Feats:
1: PBS
3: Precise Shot
4: Weapon Finesse [SB 1[
6: Weapon Focus (Dagger)
7: Quick Draw [MT 1]
9: Daring Outlaw
10: Snatch Arrows [MT 4]
11: Improved critical (dagger) [MT 5]
12: Two-weapon fighting

Don't forget that C. Scoundrel has several good poisons you can use!

[Curmudgeon]

I don't agree with that interpretation of the ruling that abilities with the same name don't stack, and it's the first time I've seen it interpreted that way.

Really? It's pretty easy to find examples.

Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

[falcon36]

Jungle Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower, grabbing Deadeye Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Shot.

I understand Palm Throw and Weak Shot, but could you explain your choice of deadeye shot? Because I thought that Two with One Blow would be more useful
since the poison had the potential of being delivered to two targets for one does. Or does that not work?

Also, if Poison Use were not a problem (say that the character only applies poison on assassination weapons or has someone else do the applying for him) what would be a good race to use?

Also, the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. It says activation is a swift action which lends me to believe that it can only be activated once per round. What's the ruling?

[Ernir]

I understand Palm Throw and Weak Shot, but could you explain your choice of deadeye shot? Because I thought that Two with One Blow would be more useful
since the poison had the potential of being delivered to two targets for one does. Or does that not work?

Looks like Two with One Blow works like that to me. It might be a better choice.

Deadeye shot synergizes with the Improved Critical you're getting for free on the 5th Master Thrower level, though.

Also, if Poison Use were not a problem (say that the character only applies poison on assassination weapons or has someone else do the applying for him) what would be a good race to use?

In Core + Completes + UA? Human. An extra feat is good.

But I'd still go with Jungle Halfling. Poison Use is handy if you're going to be using poisons at all, and halflings get a very significant net bonus on thrown weapons.

Also, the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. It says activation is a swift action which lends me to believe that it can only be activated once per round. What's the ruling?

Yup, you got it right.

[falcon36]

So I'm guessing I couldn't produce enough daggers with the guantlet of infinite blades in one round for a full round attack that round right?

If that really doesn't work like that, how do master dagger throwers equip themselves for a fight?

[The_Scourge]

Lots of knives.
The main problem with throwers is DR and the sheer number of magic weapons you need to be effective. Shurken are one way to offset this since they're enchanted like ammunition (50 at a time). I just flavour them as throwing knives. And then have one or two returning daggers for consistency and for dights you don't want to waste shuriken on.

[SurlySeraph]

Really? It's pretty easy to find examples.

Yes, I'm well aware of that rule. However, I've never seen it applied that way to abilities that you can receive multiple times from the same class, such as sneak attack or bonus feats; and I've seen it applied otherwise in enough builds to consider a level of Sneak Attack Fighter, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, or any other class that gives +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level a viable way to get +1d6 Sneak Attack, much like the interpretation that a multiclass character with levels in Fighter, Psychic Warrior, Wizard, Champion of Corellon, or any other class that provides bonus feats gets bonus feats at the listed levels rather than somehow merging his various classes' bonus feat progressions together.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, I'm well aware of that rule. However, I've never seen it applied that way to abilities that you can receive multiple times from the same class, such as sneak attack or bonus feats; and I've seen it applied otherwise in enough builds to consider a level of Sneak Attack Fighter, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, or any other class that gives +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level a viable way to get +1d6 Sneak Attack

If you have no other sources of sneak attack there's no stacking issue. And some of these classes are designed to stack sneak attack, and say so.

If a spellthief gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack.

Others are designed to be your main source of sneak attack (primarily Rogues), and these won't stack with each other unless combined with a class which includes stacking language.

[SurlySeraph]

I'd never noticed that some SA-progressing base classes have clauses about stacking and others don't. You're correct by RAW, then.

[Zaq]

Curmudgeon, would a strict reading of that "same name" rule mean that a Fighter 1 / Psychic Warrior 1 couldn't take two bonus feats, since they're both from a class feature called "Bonus Feat" and don't explicitly say that they stack? If not, why not?

[tyckspoon]

Curmudgeon, would a strict reading of that "same name" rule mean that a Fighter 1 / Psychic Warrior 1 couldn't take two bonus feats, since they're both from a class feature called "Bonus Feat" and don't explicitly say that they stack? If not, why not?

They're not 'modifiers' under the terms of the stacking rules- that is, "any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll"- and so have nothing to do with stacking at all. You can get as many bonus feats as you can stomach dipping frontloaded melee classes for.

[Zaq]

SA dice aren't modifiers, either. At least, not under how I read the D&D definition. They aren't bonuses to a die roll; they are themselves die rolls. That's why they're not multiplied on crits, despite a crit using "all your usual bonuses."

[Curmudgeon]

SA dice aren't modifiers, either. At least, not under how I read the D&D definition. They aren't bonuses to a die roll; they are themselves die rolls.

But there's nothing keeping dice rolls from being used to modify other dice rolls, so that expression in dice doesn't change the category.

bonus

A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.

Dice rolls produce positive results. When that positive modifier is applied to another roll (as sneak attack is applied to damage), it falls under the stacking rules.

Also note that sneak attack, while it's always a positive modifier, needn't be expressed only in dice. The Craven feat makes your sneak attack damage bonus have both dice (variable) and non-dice (static) components.

Perhaps you were reading "positive modifier" and for some reason thinking of it as "positive static modifier"?

[falcon36]

Another Question on this Thrown Weapon Character.

If I had access to Tome of Battles for minimum requirements, how would that change things? I've read the Bloodstorm Blade but my DM isn't too fond of ToB so he's just as likely to just say no.

[Forged Fury]

SA Discussion

Based on that reading, if someone were to have a Sneak Attack Fighter 3 / Rogue 3, they would roll 2d6 twice for SA damage and take the highest result? That's interesting. I've never seen it in a game.

[falcon36]

Based on that reading, if someone were to have a Sneak Attack Fighter 3 / Rogue 3, they would roll 2d6 twice for SA damage and take the highest result? That's interesting. I've never seen it in a game.

Wouldn't it be they take one of the two 2d6 SA as their SA damage since they are both equal modifiers?
Like if you had two +2 Bracers of Armor and you only receive the bonus of one

[Curmudgeon]

The difference is that a static +2 is always a known quantity; 2d6 is some number in the 2-12 range, and not known until actually rolled.

It's the same with the Factotum Cunning Strike ability: they can spend as many inspiration points as they want for 1d6 of sneak attack, but those overlap. More dice just increase the chances of adding +6 to the damage.

[falcon36]

But is the +2d6 of SA itself the "positive modifier"
or is the result of it the "positive modifier"?

I always thought that the 2d6 was the bonus and since you only get one bonus, you would only get one 2d6 roll

The factotum's ability is slightly different because you spend the inspiration afterwards to roll a new 1d6 that replaces the old one. At least, that's how I thought of it

[Forged Fury]

Hmmm... Curmudgeon, how would your interpretation work with the Ambush feats?

Consider the same character, a little further along in levels (Rogue 6, SA Fighter 3) with the Concussion Attack Ambush feat. Could they trade in the 2d6 damage from SA fighter for the Concussion Attack benefit and still deal full 3d6 SA damage from their Rogue levels? The Concussion Attack is no longer a modifier to the character's damage so the stacking rules would conceivably no longer apply.

[Forged Fury]

But is the +2d6 of SA itself the "positive modifier"
or is the result of it the "positive modifier"?

Based on the definition Curmudgeon supplied, it would have to be the result. 2d6 is a variable number, you could simply replace it with X for all intents and purposes. You can't tell your DM that you do 5+X damage to your opponent and leave it at that, therefore 2d6 isn't capable of modifying a number yet. Of course, that interpretation could undermine the argument that SA is a "modifier" for stacking purposes.

[falcon36]

Since only one of bonuses apply, I would imagine the Ambush feat to subtract from the bonus being applied. Meaning if the PC had +3d6 SA from both Rogue and SA Fighter and applied the Ambush to the bonus from the Rogue, he would have to reapply the Ambush to the SA Fighter if he wanted to use the Fighter's bonus instead.

But X itself is a positive modifier. It may not be a defined modifier, but it is positive nonetheless. If X1 and X2 have the same range, they are, in effect, the same bonus in terms of ultimate probability. Therefore, I would imagine that the Bonus is only one of the two Xs, not the result.