Sorcerer Spell list, were the developers lazy?

[Popertop]

Why don't Sorcerer's get their own spell list?
It seems like they would be a lot more unique
and interesting to play if they had an entirely
different list all to themselves.
Did the developers just cop out when they gave
them the wizard list, or was there a valid reason
for it?

[Sarakos]

I see Sorcerer and Wizard as two separate variants on the general "Mage" theme than an two different classes. One learns their spells by memorization and study and the other masters his magical talent more by intuition than anything else.

[Theodoriph]

Because flavourwise, the difference between Sorcerors and Wizards is not supposed to be their magical powers, but instead how those powers are acquired.

Edit: What the guy above me said.

Edit, Edit:

Realistically it was probably done because Wizards are only good at spellcasting...and people have playing preferences. The split between the preferences (spellbook casting v. spontaneous casting) was likely large enough to warrant having two similar classes whose difference is primarily based on how they acquire and use their powers.

I don't know much about 2e, but I do know Sorcs weren't brought in until 3rd, so I imagine Wizards heard from Wizards who preferred spellbook free casting.

[Magdela]

Hello, you must be new to D&D.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is one of the most broken things in the game. Of course, it is your opinion that Sorcerer's are boring simply because they are charisma based characters that use the same class as (arguably) the best class in D&D.

The difference, as stated before, is simply in the manner that they attain their spells. Sorcerers gain it through sheer arcane talent and in some books, having the blood of a dragon. This brings me to my next point.

There are some sorcerer only spells. The biggest two are Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover. I do believe they are found in one of the Dragon books, not the magazine. It allows quite a few neat tricks that the wizard can't do due to his "constricted" manner of preparing spells instead of the spontaneousness that a sorcerer has.

I do not see the developers being lazy at all, they are adding diversity and flavor. But thats my opinion.

[tiercel]

If you mostly prepare the same spells day after day as a Wizard, you're probably better off as a Sorcerer -- after all, at least then you get the flexibility of how many of 2nd-level-spell A vs 2nd-level-spell B to cast, plus metamagic on the fly.

Those are the upsides: (1) you can decide how many fireballs you need vs hastes (2) as a consequence, you can decide to spam fireball if you really want to (and more times than a wizard can) and (3) you can apply metamagic when you want to, not have to guesstimate it in advance.

If you're really going to play to a Wizard's strengths, it's going to be in having a larger number of spells to choose from and in actively customizing daily spell lists to deal with the specific challenges of the day... hence the popularity of the so-called "Batman" Wizard. A Sorcerer may have to apply fireball and haste to every problem, but Batman always has the right Bat-tool for the job.... with preparation.

Alternatively, though they are non-Core, there are "flavored Sorcerer" variants -- the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer have Sorcerer-esque casting but with fixed, flavored spell lists.

[Another_Poet]

Why don't Sorcerer's get their own spell list?
It seems like they would be a lot more unique
and interesting to play if they had an entirely
different list all to themselves.
Did the developers just cop out when they gave
them the wizard list, or was there a valid reason
for it?

You might find Pathfinder to your liking, then. In PF, wizards and sorcerers still use the same spell list, but sorcerers choose a bloodline from which they draw their powers (draconic, fey, elemental, etc) and gain special magical abilities at different levels based on their bloodline.

It's pretty fun.

[Kurald Galain]

Did the developers just cop out when they gave them the wizard list, or was there a valid reason for it?

Well, the sorcerer was intended as the wizard, only easier to play because you don't memorize. Because they overestimated how much more powerful that would be, they delayed the sorcerer's access by one level, and gave a rather limited maximum of spells known.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, note that Sorcerers are the only class who draw their spells primarily from a list. This has no explicit meaning, but its an easy enough justification for working with your DM to create a Sorcerer list that you think is more appropriate. Actually, even without that line you could probably at least ask if you're unhappy with sharing the Wizard's list.

Personally, I think that it's not really a cop out. What annoys me is that Sorcerers are placed a level behind for their only useful class feature, that they have strict limits on spells known, that specialisation allows a Wizard to have almost as many spells per day (or as many, or more, depending on how willing they are to work for it) - usually the Sorc's only advantage -, they get no bonus feats - even though it would be thematically appropriate -, and their skill list is much smaller - despite having time to study other things becuase they don't need to study magic all the time. And all because they don't need to prepare spells. And because at least one of the designers hated the very idea of them.

[Tyrrell]

Here's a story I've heard. It's probably not true.

When 3.0 was being developed back in 1998-2000 the developers felt it was a waste to devote such an incredibly large portion of the PHB (i.e. the wizard spells) to material that could only be used by one class. So it turns out that some of the thinking behind the sorcerer class was to get more use out of the wizard spell list. It wasn't laziness, it was design.

[Keinnicht]

Here's a story I've heard. It's probably not true.

When 3.0 was being developed back in 1998-2000 the developers felt it was a waste to devote such an incredibly large portion of the PHB (i.e. the wizard spells) to material that could only be used by one class. So it turns out that some of the thinking behind the sorcerer class was to get more use out of the wizard spell list. It wasn't laziness, it was design.

"Making this long list for only one class is a waste of space."

That sounds like laziness. Although I do think it makes sense - there's only so many arcane spells, and Sorcerers and Wizards are much closer than Druids and Clerics.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

"Making this long list for only one class is a waste of space."

That sounds like laziness.

No. That sounds like economics. Needing an additional list of whole new spells increases the number of pages that need to be printed, which raises the cost of production, which raises the price of the finished product, which reduces the size of the customer base.

The aforementioned Pathfinder had to cut out even d20-based spells for room in the core rulebook. Fortunately, however, they were able to release them in a free PDF.

[Reynard]

If you want to increase the differences between Sorcerers and Wizards, try the following steps.

Ignore the Sorcerer class.
Take the Psion and Wilder classes, and call them the Sorcerer and the Wild Sorcerer (Or something less stupid, I guess).
????
Profit.

[eggynack]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, note that Sorcerers are the only class who draw their spells primarily from a list. This has no explicit meaning, but its an easy enough justification for working with your DM to create a Sorcerer list that you think is more appropriate. Actually, even without that line you could probably at least ask if you're unhappy with sharing the Wizard's list.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is meant to denote the three or four sorc only spells like wings of cover.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is meant to denote the three or four sorc only spells like wings of cover.

The Wizard has a number of exclusive spells as well, and doesn't have that language in the class.

[Bang!]

I always thought the 'primarily' thing was in reference to specific monsters like dragons, which are generally sorcerers with access to non-Sorc/Wiz spells. I can't recall any Core parallels involving another spellcasting base.

[Koury]

The Wizard has a number of exclusive spells as well, and doesn't have that language in the class.

Also, if I recall correctly, at the time that line was written, there weren't any Sorc only spells (though the Wiz only still existed).

[Popertop]

how does a sorcerer develop his own spells if he can't do research and has a spells known cap?

[Marillion]

how does a sorcerer develop his own spells if he can't do research and has a spells known cap?

Personally, I'd say sheer force of will forcing the magic in his blood to do something else.

[ffone]

Why don't Sorcerer's get their own spell list?
It seems like they would be a lot more unique
and interesting to play if they had an entirely
different list all to themselves.
Did the developers just cop out when they gave
them the wizard list, or was there a valid reason
for it?

cuz if they had different lists, you'd have people asking about how to design a spontaneous wizard and prepared sorcerer.

(See also: Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman.)

[HunterOfJello]

Sorcerers were an experimental wizard variant. Simple as that.

You have to view Sorcerers vs. Wizards from the perspective of 2nd edition d&d, not 3.5e or 4e.

[Popertop]

The only thing I found in the srd about a sorcerer learning a new spell is this:

Spoiler

Show

"With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

And that's it. There can be many different interpretations of "some understanding". Is there any other source that gives a more developed guideline for this sort of thing?

[eyelessgame]

The thing sorcerers can do that wizards cannot, really, is metamagic (which is made much better with more 3.5e splatbooks). Not having to prepare metamagic ahead of time gives a sorcerer much more flexibility, if she chooses spells and metamagic strategically so that they combine as imaginatively as possible.

IME only, of course.

[Goonthegoof]

Nope, but the wording of primarily in describing their spell list opens them up to using Extra Spell from Complete Arcane to learn spells from other spell lists.

[Eldan]

However, they have to increase casting time to use metamagic (without additional support from splats), which means they can't use the most important of all, Quicken.

[InaVegt]

Wasn't the Witch spell list from the DMG meant to be an alternate sorcerer spell list? I mean, it's listed as a class and all, but it's not gotten anything but a spell list.

I, at least, don't see any problems replacing a sorcerer's spell list with that one.

[AtomicKitKat]

Alternatively, though they are non-Core, there are "flavored Sorcerer" variants -- the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer have Sorcerer-esque casting but with fixed, flavored spell lists.

Can probably lump the Duskblade/Hexblade in there as well. All 5 are basically "Specialist Sorcerers" with varying degrees of martial proficiency.

Development of Sorcerers came about sometime in late AD&D, with Player's Options: Spells and Powers being a contributing source, I think(that and I still have that book). Essentially, it listed different options(with varying "point costs/offsets") for modifying your spellcasters. Including Dark Sun-esque Channelers(taking mana from the environment), and probably no-preparation as one of the available ones. If I were to remake Sorcerers, I'd probably just let them get the same rate of spell acquisition as Wizards, with a Metamagic Feat at 5th and every 5-6 levels after. Or something.

As a side-note, I prefer Generalist to Specialist Wizards myself. While some schools are less powerful than others in varying circumstances, you're not being true to being a Batman Wizard unless you have everything available to you. IMNSHO, of course.

[Tvtyrant]

I would be a horrible Wizard. Everytime I look at their spell list I immediately think about banning Conjuration and Evocation and specializing in Illusion.

Anyway, if you want a Sorcerer that is more dragon oriented then the core on use the Dragon Fire Adept. It gets an awesome fire breath and relatively different casting mechanics which are Charisma based. Its less powerful, but more interesting.

[Greenish]

If I were to remake Sorcerers, I'd probably just let them get the same rate of spell acquisition as Wizards, with a Metamagic Feat at 5th and every 5-6 levels after.

And free Eschew Materials so that if your burning dragon blood packs to your head and calls for you to burninate something, you don't have to waste time looking for bat poo.

As a side-note, I prefer Generalist to Specialist Wizards myself. While some schools are less powerful than others in varying circumstances, you're not being true to being a Batman Wizard unless you have everything available to you. IMNSHO, of course.

But, but, think of the sweet spellslots!

Besides, if you can't solve everything with a sculpted solid fog, you're not trying.

[Runestar]

But, but, think of the sweet spellslots!

Besides, if you can't solve everything with a sculpted solid fog, you're not trying.

Yeah, with the advent of the focused specialist variant in complete mage, I don't think I can ever go back to playing a generalist wizard ever again.

[Popertop]

is there any mechanic for combining spells?
like two of equal level, or two of different level, anything?

I've heard of sorcerers with spell slots leftover, are there other ways to cast lots of spells?