Angel vs. Archon [3.5]

[Tvtyrant]

So I was looking through ye olde monster manual (3.5) and I was considering the differences between the Astral Deva Angel and the Trumpet Archon and noticed that they shared the same CR. However they seem to go about very different means to the same results (spell likes versus prepped spells) so my question to the playgrounders is which one of them is more powerful. I have my own opinion but I would prefer to hear someone else's.

[Runestar]

Trumpet archon seems like it would have the advantage vs the PCs, since it has more liberty to use its spells to prebuff and during combat.

Conversely, at-will SLAs may not be so useful to the astral deva when it doesn't have infinite actions to spam them to his heart's content.

[Tvtyrant]

I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

[FelixG]

I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

Ray attacks normally ignore DR as is...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.

[Runestar]

I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

The rays actually deal 2d12 damage each, though 4d12 damage averages just 26 damage, hardly amazing at lv13.

That's because having a great deal of special abilities is not that useful when you are expected to face the PCs for 3-5 rounds of combat, so most of its special attacks will be underutilized. It's greatest weakness is that it has just 65 hp, making it extremely fragile. Even with dr, a fighter can still 1-shot it on a full-attack.

Not to mention that it cannot cast spells in globe form.

This is why the ghaele has a cr of just 13 but an ECL of 20.

The trumpet archon would essentially fight as a cleric14, just that it has better resistances and immunities, and some extra abilities like double-aura and stun. Take advantage of BOED, give it spells like greater luminous armour?

[AslanCross]

I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

There's many other CR travesties, but I think Monster Manual II is the worst offender. The Gray Linnorm is one oddity. 17th-level casting on a dragon-type probably merits a CR 20, but it only has 13 HD and less than 150 HP. As such, a level-appropriate encounter with it probably results in rocket tag. (Then again, isn't that the case for most things at that level?)

[Yuki Akuma]

The CR system doesn't really work that well.

Shock.

[Runestar]

The CR system doesn't really work that well.

Shock.

More like it can't accurately capture the effectiveness of monsters with stats that deviate too greatly from the norm. Monsters with too few hp pose a problem if they lose initiative and get creamed before having a chance to act.

Hence, you see the shift towards more standardised stats in 4e.

[Yuki Akuma]

More like it can't accurately capture the effectiveness of monsters with stats that deviate too greatly from the norm. Monsters with too few hp pose a problem if they lose initiative and get creamed before having a chance to act.

Hence, you see the shift towards more standardised stats in 4e.

So what you're saying is... the CR system doesn't really work that well?

[Runestar]

So what you're saying is... the CR system doesn't really work that well?

Oh it works, as well as a lv-based indicator ever can at any rate, IMO.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm thinking the Archon is probably the stronger of the two, especially in a fight. Full casting tends to be better then spell likes IMO.

[Eldonauran]

Oh it works, as well as a lv-based indicator ever can at any rate, IMO.

CR system works just fine ... if you don't optimize. AT ALL. PERIOD!!! Oh, and restrict that to the Core books (PHB, DMG and MM1).

That is all.

[Hyfigh]

The monsterous crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

[Tvtyrant]

You could just throw every aberration ever on the list of things that are way too strong for their CR. Seriously, all of them. Especially O-Chuuls!

[ToySoldierCPlus]

That damn crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

Fixed that for you.

Overall, I'd say CR's borked as anything other than a loose (at best) guideline. Know your PCs and what they're capable of, and you'll be better off than if you know their levels and pick monsters that way.

[Jothki]

The monsterous crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

I wouldn't consider a monster that can be completely negated by 8 gp or a first-level spell to be a challenge.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I wouldn't consider a monster that can be completely negated by 8 gp or a first-level spell to be a challenge.

What 1st-level spell or 8 gp item can beat this damned crab?

[Jothki]

What 1st-level spell or 8 gp item can beat this damned crab?

Oh, right, two claws. Two 1st-level spells or 16 gp.

[Hyfigh]

Oh, right, two claws. Two 1st-level spells or 16 gp.

OK, but you haven't sited which item and/or spells...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

SRD has no spells that reliably counter this thing in any fashion whatsoever. I haven't checked any splat books, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any 1st-level spells that will stop this monstrosity. And I can't think of any items that will do it, either.

[Tvtyrant]

Entangle would definitely help; some of the other control spells too. Its immune to the more useful ones though :(

[Bang!]

Dress it up in a scarf and mittens?
Throw ink in its eyes?
Serenade it with a 10-member whistle choir?
Booze it up with 40 gallons of ale?
Make it battle a donkey?
Book it an 80 mile ride on a ship?
...I'm running out of 8gp options.

You could probably throw a sheep at it and run, though. It's mindless, after all.

[AtomicKitKat]

Grease. Either yourself or the Crab.

[Bang!]

So the Greased level 3 Rogue can survive the crab's first attack and escape 60% of its grapples? That's neat, I guess.

[AtomicKitKat]

So the Greased level 3 Rogue can survive the crab's first attack and escape 60% of its grapples? That's neat, I guess.

You're forgetting that you can also force that damned crab to make Reflex Saves. Not its weakest save(Will being at +2, and Reflex +4), but still enough for a hope(not much, since you need it to roll 1-5 on the d20, so a 25% chance for it to slip and fall).

Edit: Actually, reading up on Balance suggests it's a 5% chance to slip and fall, with rolls 2-5(20%) making it unable to move for the round.

[Bang!]

You're forgetting that you can also force that damned crab to make Reflex Saves. Not its weakest save(Will being at +2, and Reflex +4), but still enough for a hope(not much, since you need it to roll 1-5 on the d20, so a 25% chance for it to slip and fall).

Okay, that's a fair point. For some reason I was assuming a crab encounter would take place somewhere that Grease wouldn't make much sense (namely sand) instead of a rocky shore or cobble stoned aquarium-rim or something.

[Yuki Akuma]

Grease works fine on sand.

It's magic.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

We went through this argument in another thread where that damned crab came up. While grease is a spell, and therefore only fails if it is cast under conditions that specifically cause it fail, it was argued that it would not be fully unreasonable for a DM to veto it based on the fact that a crab, especially one as heavy as TDC, plants its feet inside the ground, rather than on it.

That said, while grease would help someone survive some of the grapples, it doesn't help enough, and it doesn't stop the claw damage. And it doesn't have enough of a chance of pinning TDC in place so it can be pincushioned. I don't know, the only idea I like is throwing a couple of sheep at it, so it eats those and lets the party escape.

[Runestar]

So no one here has experiences fighting angels that would help determine how accurate their cr is?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

So no one here has experiences fighting angels that would help determine how accurate their cr is?

Oh yeah, that's what this thread was about, wasn't it? Oops, sorry. Hmm...An angel could probably take out TDC.