Can you feel the spell end?

[Thespianus]

Is there any RAW rule for knowing when a spell ends?

For example: A simple spell like Mount have a 2 hr / caster level duration. A level 5 Wizard summons a Mount, packs the pony full of loot and heads off towards the nearest town. After 10 hours, the pony disappears, the loot falls to the ground and breaks into tiny pieces. The Wizard curses loudly.

Is there any RAW support for a Wizard to know when a Mount will disappear, or in the general case, when a spell he cast previously will end? Or does he have to keep track of the time with some separate item?

In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.

If there is no RAW support for this, would it hurt the game to add it? Can it be abused?

Thanks for any input.

[Dalek-K]

Well if the spell descriptor (which may or may not be completely meta-game) says 2/hr a level then the wizard would know not to last longer than what it says.

I always thought spell descriptors were like reading nutritonal facts or a operation manual...

[Elric VIII]

Well, for almost all spells with durations greater than instantaneous, the duration is set by caster level. Caster level is a direct measure of the Wizard's raw power that we can quantify out of character, the Wizard would most likely know how powerful he is (but would not think of himself as CL 5) and should be able to gauge the limit of his spells. My justification for this is that there is no roll to determine if a Wizard misses with a Fireball because he overestimated its range (ex - a CL 5 fireball has 600 ft range, and a wizard tries to hurl it 700ft). So it is reasonable to assume that a spellcaster knows the dynamics of his own spells. While this is not based on any actual rules, it is an implied fact.

[Dalek-K]

Think of it kind of like throwing a baseball.. You know roughly how far you can throw it after throwing it once. After you throw it a few times you can then throw it farther than before... You don't know exactly but you have a good idea of it.

[Grelna the Blue]

It seems reasonable to say that a caster would at least know the minimum duration of any spell cast. Some spells have a random element to their duration, though, and a caster probably wouldn't know exactly when they'd expire. Also, if a GM wanted to be tough, she could rule that the caster knew the minimum duration when the spell was cast but wasn't automatically keeping track of elapsed time.

However, in the case of any spell like Mount that is Dismissible, the mage should definitely know when it is about to expire, as the mage still has a mental connection to the spell and would feel its energies unravelling.

[Foryn Gilnith]

In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.

Caster level is metagaming?
When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".

[Thespianus]

However, in the case of any spell like Mount that is Dismissible, the mage should definitely know when it is about to expire, as the mage still has a mental connection to the spell and would feel its energies unravelling.

Ah, good point. The Dismissable attribute on a spell would make sense in this scenario. Thanks!

Not sure if it's RAW, but it's a reasonable way to read RAW.

[Thespianus]

Caster level is metagaming?
When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".

I don't know, it seems wierd to me, just as weird as having the characters know they "took" a certain Feat. Either you have the following situation:

1) No meta-game knowledge:

"I can unleash pretty good magical energy, but with Fire-spells I'm even better!"

or:

2) Full meta-game knowledge:
"I am caster level 5, but with Fire-spells I'm a 6, because I took the Fiery Burst Reserve Feat"

The middle ground seems unreasonable:

1.5) "I'm caster level 5, but with Fire-spells I'm a 6, because I worked extra hard with Fire-studies, and I found the ancient secret to cast bursts of fire at will."


But, then again, YMMV.

[Ernir]

I don't think spells give a warning that they're about to expire, I don't remember any such general rule. Also, Wind Walk specifically mentions that it gives a warning, suggesting that it isn't the rule.

However...

Caster level is metagaming?
When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".

This.

Even if you don't have a timer available, you would have to be pretty oblivious to never notice whether the mage armor spell you cast before breakfast every morning expires before or after noon. This is case where it would be very obvious, but really, I would expect a spellcaster to know how long their spells last, even if it isn't to the second.

[Kansaschaser]

I would say a decent Spellcraft check (DC: 10+spell level) would let you correctly guess the lenth of a spell.

Or if you had Detect Magic on, you could make a Spellcraft check to see how much longer the spell will last.

In games where I'm playing a Wizard, I know my "power" due to the fact that I have access to certain spells.

Plus, when you hire a spellcaster, I'm sure there is some way of figuering out the price for spells. So most spellcasters should know their "caster level". Even if they don't call it caster level.

[Koury]

I've always assumed that characters knew. I often pass notes to the party Wizard that read "Your Stinking Cloud is dissipating. Spell ends in two rounds." or something like that to remind my players.

[Foryn Gilnith]

@Thespianus:

"I'm caster level 5, but because I worked extra hard with Fire studies and can manage fire energy more efficiently, my fire spells are more effective. [I may or may not know that the effectiveness increase is relatively constant, since these techniques are poorly studied and I've never bothered keeping track. If I do notice this, it would be a fairly simple matter to determine that its effective magnitude is Caster Level +1.]"

This is what my intuition suggests. But, then again, intuition can often lead to tangled and inconsistent logic. Since your tastes vary, that's fine for you, I guess.

[ffone]

Is there any RAW rule for knowing when a spell ends?

For example: A simple spell like Mount have a 2 hr / caster level duration. A level 5 Wizard summons a Mount, packs the pony full of loot and heads off towards the nearest town. After 10 hours, the pony disappears, the loot falls to the ground and breaks into tiny pieces. The Wizard curses loudly.

Is there any RAW support for a Wizard to know when a Mount will disappear, or in the general case, when a spell he cast previously will end? Or does he have to keep track of the time with some separate item?

In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.

If there is no RAW support for this, would it hurt the game to add it? Can it be abused?

Thanks for any input.

The caster knows the spell's duration but doesn't automatically know how much time has elapsed.

(Note that if you did allow the latter, you'd have people casting spells like Arcane Mark to give themselves an 'internal clock' for measuring time in general, even if they don't care about the Arcane Mark's duration.)

If you'd like game world characters to know time elapsed accurately, the DM can just posit that clockwork timepieces are not unheard of (perhaps very expensive, but PCs at level 2+ are wealthy by commoner standards), even in some canon settings. In Forgotten Realms I typically explain away certain elements as "gnomish", as FR gnomes are on the steampunk-y end of medieval-fantasy.

Or make up a cantrip that gives you an internal clock for 24 hours.

Also, things like small portable sundials (work OK if you're outside in a sunny place, and you have a compass to orient it).

And some things like Traveler's Mount can also be dealt with by just having the wizard estimate conservatively (but if your players push this you might need to make up rules for how accurate a typical human's sense of time is).

[Gamer Girl]

1.I'd point out that figuring out the duration of a spell would be a part of a spellcasters training. They simply know how long their spells last. The hard way would be for the spellcaster to simply cast the spell, watch a clock ans see how long it lasts. This would be one of the 'behind the scenes things' that spellcaster's do.

2.With high intelligences, the average spellcaster can keep track of time good. So if they know the spell lasts an hour, they know how long an hour is.

3.Any spell still active and controlled by the caster could give a 'tingle' of running out of power. So the caster could feel the spell slowly weaken, maybe three rounds before it does.

4.And there is no reason any spell effect could not give of a 'warning' that it's about to end...if you know what to look for. A mount, for example, might start to fade away, just a bit at the edges...or it's hoofs might give off a bit of smoke.

[Jarawara]

I would rule that any wizard worth his salt would just naturally know the length of time that has expired. In fact, any human should be able to internally tell time and keep track of it. That's true in the real world, why not in the game world? If an adventurer couldn't do that... well, he shouldn't be an adventurer! Unless he's a Gnome, you can never count on those guys keeping track of time, or equipment, or even stay on topic! I once was campaigning with this Gnome, and I swear, you could never count on that guy to keep track of anything. He'd start up a conversation about nothing, and then he'd...

... oh crap, the time. I'm late for work. Gotta go.

[Bugbeartrap]

I feel like its a necessary abstraction. Does anyone complain when the fighter knows how to quantify his Base Attack Bonus for Power Attack purposes?

[Jjeinn-tae]

I would rule that any wizard worth his salt would just naturally know the length of time that has expired. In fact, any human should be able to internally tell time and keep track of it. That's true in the real world, why not in the game world? If an adventurer couldn't do that... well, he shouldn't be an adventurer! Unless he's a Gnome, you can never count on those guys keeping track of time, or equipment, or even stay on topic! I once was campaigning with this Gnome, and I swear, you could never count on that guy to keep track of anything. He'd start up a conversation about nothing, and then he'd...

... oh crap, the time. I'm late for work. Gotta go.

Some of us are not so lucky to have that internal clock... But in a wizard's case, I'm going to agree they probably have some knowledge of caster level, regardless of what they qualify it as, and probably, in their reality, it is measured in much smaller blocks of somewhat noticeable effect. They would reasonably understand what it gives them for duration, but I think the spell would only let them know if it was expiring if they were linked to it through concentration or similar.

[ffone]

Agreed with J; it only feels metagamey b/c it's a discrete, integer number rather than a continuous value ("I'm caster level 3.72"); and spell slots are also discrete (i.e. Vancian).

[ericgrau]

Some spells like fly describe themselves as ending slowly and safely which prevents such problems. From this and since nothing else says otherwise it's implied that you don't know. But usually it's not a problem. Even with a mount a saddlebag falling 5 feet won't break its contents. The spell only provides a saddle & etc. so the bags must have been provided non-magically.

[FelixG]

Just keep track of the sun, "I am an Int X wizard, during my days of training i often studied the position of the sun and moon in the night sky to judge the length of my spells."

that way you can just give a glance up to check the time and correctly estimate how long your spell is going to last.

Though what kind of loot were you carrying? that it was able to shatter on the ground after falling off an imaginary horse

[Thespianus]

Ok, thanks everyone. I'm sorry for the thread necromancy, but I just wanted to thank everyone involved. :)

And, yes, a simple Spellcraft-check would suffice in any cases where the duration of the spell is critical to the story/adventure.

(The Mount didn't really disappear and cause all the loot to break, it was just an example ;) )