Demon Ecology, Anti-Paladin, Social graces

[TalonDemonKing]

A series of odd questions:

1)Where to demons come from? Specifically, how are more created? Is it a construction ritual like making a golem, or are they birthed like humans (Or maybe snakes?). From there, if its the latter, how come you don't see any demon-children? I figure throwing that moral delimna at a paladin might be enough to make him cringe.
2) Speaking of Paladins and evil: Can an Anti-Paladin 'Fall' and become a Paladin? I don't remember reading that they could, but never explicit says that they cannot.
3) Finally, can a Paladin fall for being 'humane' towards all targets, even the evil ones? Violence only begets violence, so obviously pacifism is encouraged. But when faced with evil (Lawful Evil, mostly), is it okay to make some sort of deal with them to prevent them from attacking the party, in exchange for some material wealth? Or are Paladins obliged to attack on sight?

Bonus question: If a character (Self imposed or otherwise) has to 'Treat ladies with respect', where does this end at? If they're human, does it end at elves? Half orcs? Dragons? Demons? Golems?

[Callos_DeTerran]

A series of odd questions:

1)Where to demons come from? Specifically, how are more created? Is it a construction ritual like making a golem, or are they birthed like humans (Or maybe snakes?). From there, if its the latter, how come you don't see any demon-children? I figure throwing that moral delimna at a paladin might be enough to make him cringe.
2) Speaking of Paladins and evil: Can an Anti-Paladin 'Fall' and become a Paladin? I don't remember reading that they could, but never explicit says that they cannot.
3) Finally, can a Paladin fall for being 'humane' towards all targets, even the evil ones? Violence only begets violence, so obviously pacifism is encouraged. But when faced with evil (Lawful Evil, mostly), is it okay to make some sort of deal with them to prevent them from attacking the party, in exchange for some material wealth? Or are Paladins obliged to attack on sight?

Bonus question: If a character (Self imposed or otherwise) has to 'Treat ladies with respect', where does this end at? If they're human, does it end at elves? Half orcs? Dragons? Demons? Golems?

1) According to Hordes of the Abyss, they are birthed from the Abyss itself in a vast majority of cases, barring those born from demons capable of actual reproduction.

2) What do you mean by Anti-Paladin?

3) Depends on the situation and what the source of evil is.

Bonus: Depends on the character. If any of my characters had such a code it wouldn't be based on species but on behavior. If the female red dragon acted like it, then she would be considered a 'Lady' and be given due respect. If not...

[Greenish]

As with all alignment discussions, what follows is my own opinion, and highly subjective.

1. Demons embody Chaotic Evil and spring forth from the stuff of evil that forms their plane, as lowly Dretches, and claw their way up in the ranks. They're not about to cause moral dilemmas to paladins, since they're 'born' Evil, and even though they could turn to Good, almost none of them do.

2. Few people are beyond redemption. Though the rules do not say anything of it (to my knowledge), it might be possible to turn to good, but not by merely falling from being anti-paladin - you'll need some real conviction and desire for good to ever rise to become a paladin.

3. Paladins are not obliged to attack Evil on sight, but they're obliged to punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Paladins should act humanely towards everyone, and avoid causing unnecessary harm. To pay for being left unharmed should be okay, provided you don't think innocent people who can't afford to pay are going to be forced to do so by your inaction.

Bonus. The limit would go where the character thinks it goes.

[Edit]:

2) What do you mean by Anti-Paladin?

Variant Pathfinder class, exactly what it says in the tin.

[Mastikator]

1. From the abyss it self. Also, when chaotic evil souls go to the abyss they become manes, which may or may not grow into actual demons.

2. Practically speaking it shouldn't be possible to "fall" from evil. Or at least incredibly hard. Since you can always do seemingly good acts with selfish intentions and still be evil, but you can't do blatantly evil things and still be good (no matter how good the cause behind it is).
Evil isn't something you fall from, it's something you rise above. It's easier to be evil than it is to be good.

3. If the act is genuinely merciful then no. Never. Mercy is always good and even if it has negative consequences the paladin's hands are clean.

[AslanCross]

A series of odd questions:

1)Where to demons come from? Specifically, how are more created? Is it a construction ritual like making a golem, or are they birthed like humans (Or maybe snakes?). From there, if its the latter, how come you don't see any demon-children? I figure throwing that moral delimna at a paladin might be enough to make him cringe.

Demons are physical manifestations of chaos and evil. They spontaneously form in the Abyss, as per Fiendish Codex I. Same is true in 4E, I think, except they come from the Elemental Chaos.

2) Speaking of Paladins and evil: Can an Anti-Paladin 'Fall' and become a Paladin? I don't remember reading that they could, but never explicit says that they cannot.

A Paladin falls by breaking his code of conduct. A paladin becomes a blackguard by deliberately making a choice to serve an evil force. There is a difference. If an Anti-Paladin makes some bizarre vow to be a jerk to everything, then there might be a way, but by RAW, blackguards in 3.5 do not have a code of conduct.

3) Finally, can a Paladin fall for being 'humane' towards all targets, even the evil ones? Violence only begets violence, so obviously pacifism is encouraged. But when faced with evil (Lawful Evil, mostly), is it okay to make some sort of deal with them to prevent them from attacking the party, in exchange for some material wealth? Or are Paladins obliged to attack on sight?

It is usually recommended that players who wish to play paladins discuss their code of conduct with the DM so that the DM doesn't look for every possible way to screw him over. That said, by RAW, no. Paladins are not obliged to slay all evil.

Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Paladins only fall if they willingly commit an evil act (which again, should be discussed with the DM). The additional clauses, depending on the DM, might be interpreted to mean less "serious" infractions.

Bonus question: If a character (Self imposed or otherwise) has to 'Treat ladies with respect', where does this end at? If they're human, does it end at elves? Half orcs? Dragons? Demons? Golems?

It's up to the character or the DM. Is it toward people who are simply ladylike? Is it toward anything biologically female? If he comes from a racist background, perhaps it might be his race only, or every race but elves, or something.

Outsiders have varying concepts of gender. Archfiends tend to have a specific gender; others may be genderless. Golems, being constructs, have no gender.

Nitty-gritty things notwithstanding, it is also possible to fight someone while still respecting him/her.

[Gnorman]

Anti-Paladins can "rise," I'm sure.

[hamishspence]

Demons are physical manifestations of chaos and evil. They spontaneously form in the Abyss, as per Fiendish Codex I. Same is true in 4E, I think, except they come from the Elemental Chaos.

The 3.5 ed Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles in Dragon magazine do suggest that many demons were originally mortal souls- if the mortal soul was associated with a particular "sin" in life- that influences what demon it becomes.

So a CE person who was exceptionally lustful, might become a succubus. If exceptionally slothful, they might become an akilith. And so on.

Some demon lords are also famous for having been powerful mortals- Koshtchie was a frost giant in life, before becoming a demon lord after death.

[KillianHawkeye]

Demons are physical manifestations of chaos and evil. They spontaneously form in the Abyss, as per Fiendish Codex I. Same is true in 4E, I think, except they come from the Elemental Chaos.

No, demons still come from the Abyss in 4E, it's just that they moved the Abyss from the Astral Plane to the Elemental Chaos. It's still a seperate realm, though.

[hamishspence]

In Demonomicon 4E, the obyrith lords are actually from another plane- they devoured nearly everything in it.

In order to escape it, they extended a projection into the D&D universe- which took the form of the shard now known as the Heart of the Abyss.

Tharizdun found it, was corrupted by it. They told him to plant in in the Astral Sea. Instead, he planted it in the Elemental Chaos, and as a result the Abyss was created. The surviving obyrith lords escaped into the newly created Abyss.

While most obyriths were destroyed, 12 survived. From the destroyed obyriths, new demons were spawned, such as the sibriexes.

Other demons were corrupted elementals or primordials. Grazzt was a corrupted archdevil. And so on.

[Mordokai]

The only evil outsider that are born, as per mortal standards, are young erinyes, at least as far as I know. Since those are devils and you were asking about the demons, I guess that is of little help to you. I just wanted to bring it forward. Demons, as already mentioned, are spawned from Abyss itself.

As for chivalry... I guess it all depends on character. I guess few(or indeed, none at all) of paladins would be chivalrous towards succubi or erinyes, at least in their natural form. But other than such obvious cases, I would say that if you want to treat ladies with respect, that should be towards every race.

[hamishspence]

Heroes of Horror does have Evil Native Outsiders, though (a bit like half-fiends, but something odd is involved. Maybe the child was conceived in a tainted area, or maybe possessed by a fiend well before birth).

Either way- it looks almost indistinguishable from a normal creature- but has the Evil subtype, Outsider type (native subtype) and power comparable to a half-fiend.

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, has the cambion (technically a demon) which is what happens when a demon is crossed with a planetouched rather than a mortal.

While having all the demon traits (native to Abyss, Outsider type, extraplanar subtype, Evil and Chaotic subtypes) and even being called "Demon, Cambion" only 90% of Cambions are Evil. The rest are Neutral or Good.

In the same book, is the Oculus Demon (ancient, not a tanar'ri, comes in male and female varieties) and it also reproduces the normal way rather than growing straight from the Abyss.

[Mordokai]

I remembere Oculus, but my memory is shaky at best. Like said, erinyes were the only creature that came to my memory at the moment of writting previous post, because I remember that FC II intoned that erinyes alone of all devils sometimes deny promotion(all but unheard of in Baator) because of the privilige of being able to give birth.

Or something along those lines.

[hamishspence]

FC2 is right for female devils (though unique female devils also get the ability).

If, for example, Fierna or Glasya were to choose to get pregnant, they would be able to.

In the (rather bad) novel Elminster in Hell, it is said that Asmodeus gets really, really ticked off when archdevils do this though- and that one archdevil (Lucifer) his consort Batna, and their child Lucifuge, were all destroyed permanently by Asmodeus for this.

The character saying this is an outcast archdevil though- so may not be reliable.

[Mordokai]

FC2 is right for female devils (though unique female devils also get the ability).

If, for example, Fierna or Glasya were to choose to get pregnant, they would be able to.

Well yes, I imagine as much, though I don't remember reading about it. It makes world of sense however. However, there is also world of difference between Fierna and/or Glasya and your regular erinye.

And I'm not just talking about a ten or so points of difference in charisma

[hamishspence]

Yup- female erinyes (though male ones do exist- there is one in Exemplars of Evil, page 99). pleasure devils (upgraded erinyes), and unique female devils (anything from a minor duchess of Hell to Glasya herself) may all be able to bear children,

but otherwise, they will be very different in power and abilities.

[hewhosaysfish]

Yup- female erinyes (though male ones do exist- there is one in Exemplars of Evil,

Why go to Exemplars of Evil when the answer is in Core?

Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

This is gradually turning a pet peeve of mine. Every time I see people (on this board) assuming that all Erinyes are female it annoys me slightly more than it did the previous time.

I gues when people get to the Erinyes entry, they skip reding it in favour of just looking at the picture...

Now, I totally want to play a male Erinyes with a chip on his shoulder.

[hamishspence]

Yup- though Exemplars of Evil is the first source to actually have a picture of one.


Unfortunately, they didn't have art galleries for some of the later books.

[LOTRfan]

This is gradually turning a pet peeve of mine. Every time I see people (on this board) assuming that all Erinyes are female it annoys me slightly more than it did the previous time.

I gues when people get to the Erinyes entry, they skip reding it in favour of just looking at the picture...

Now, I totally want to play a male Erinyes with a chip on his shoulder.

I agree. I go out of my way to add male erinyes, pleasure devils, and succubi, just because it irks me that everyone expects females.

[hamishspence]

Demonomicon: Malcanthet does have incubi as a seperate class of demon from succubi.

However, given the shapeshifting powers of pleasure devils and succubi- there's no reason for them to always choose a female appearance. Maybe they're more like dopplegangers- genderless- and can be male or female at their own convenience?

This pic here from Savage Species:

Spoiler

Show

shows what appears to be a succubus that prefers male form. It's the picture for the succubus monster class.

[Mordokai]

Actually, it was hinted in one of the previous threads(forgot which one and I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up) that succubi and incubi are two different species of demons and not just one being that is able to change genders. Therefore, the creature in that picture of yours is still a succubus, just in male form. Incubi are supposedly much less comely, if not downright ugly and can be found illustrated in one of the Dragon magazines.

EDIT: upon reading your post again, I see that we basically said the same thing... hurray for basic reading understanding

[hamishspence]

Yup- Incubi are in Dragon 353 (March 2007)- the one with Demonomicon: Malcanthet.

They look like humans- but with long curly horns, sharp teeth, and cloven hooves instead of feet. No wings.

[Mordokai]

Is there an online version of Iggwilv's Demonomicon? I would love to get my hands on that, but the chances of that are pretty slim.

[Tharkie]

Bonus question: If a character (Self imposed or otherwise) has to 'Treat ladies with respect'

Sexism. They fall.

[KillianHawkeye]

Sexism. They fall.

I fail to see how "I make sure to always respect members of the opposite sex" counts as sexism, unless you mean it is sexism against the paladin's own gender.

[hamishspence]

Is there an online version of Iggwilv's Demonomicon? I would love to get my hands on that, but the chances of that are pretty slim.

Sadly, no. Early issues of online Dragon are free though- and those include Grazzt, and Yeenoghu. Grazzt is in one of the 3.5 online ones, Yeenoghu is in the June 2008 4E online one.

Oddly, Orcus never got a Demonomicon article. He did get a stat update in Dungeon Magazine though. Same issue as had stats for Iggwilv.

Print issues of Dragon with Demonomicon articles:
#329 (March 2005) Pazuzu
#333 (July 2005) Fraz-Urb'luu
#336 (October 2005) Spells of the Demonomicon
#337 (November 2005) Zuggtmoy
#341 (March 2006) Baphomet
#345 (July 2006) Kostchtchie
#349 (November 2006) Dagon
#353 (March 2007) Malcanthet
#357 (July 2007) Demogorgon
#359 (September 2007) Apocrypha (minor demon lords)

Issue of Dungeon with updated Orcus (and Iggwilv): Issue 149 (August 2007)

[Kris Strife]

Anti-Paladins can "rise," I'm sure.

You just need to add enough yeast.

I fail to see how "I make sure to always respect members of the opposite sex" counts as sexism, unless you mean it is sexism against the paladin's own gender.

While it was intended as a joke here, I have seen women who get angry at guys for holding the door open for them because it's "sexist."

Yes, I have been called sexist because I held the door open for someone. No idea who they were, I was just trying to be polite.