Battle Bard

[ffone]

(Note: this is a non-Tome-of-Battle campaign. This is outside my control. Please don't bother telling me I'm an idiot for not using ToB or explaining how I really should be to make melee viable, etc. etc. I already read my thread on that for the day.)

A player wants to play a buff-and-attack type bard. What's some good build and tactical advice? I found the handbook at

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...Bards_Handbook

Snowflake Wardance looks nice for attack mod...but what are some ways to pump damage? I'm a little worried about the common pitfall (esp for players who like Dex-y characters - weapon finesse or ranged etc.) of making a char who can hit with a good chance but then does small damage. The bard's 3/4ths BAB and Snowflake Wardance's one-handed restriction make Power Attack seem unattractive for such a char. Are there good 1st-3rd level bard spells to put in a Spell Storing weapon?

[TaintedLight]

If you allow ToB, check out Song of the White Raven. You can pick up a few initiator levels and then wade in with some manuevers.

[gorfnab]

Here are some Bard Gish builds:
Bard 8/ Paladin 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8 (requires Militia feat, Otherworldly feat, or Outsider Subtype)
Bard 8/ Something Full BAB + Martial Weapon Profs 1/ Knight Phantom 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Knight Phantom 9
Bard 7/ Something Full BAB + Martial Weapon Profs 1/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8
Bard 7/ Something Full BAB + Martial Weapon Profs 1/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 4/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 4/ Sublime Chord 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 4


For some buffing options look here: Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook

[absolmorph]

Dragonfire Inspiration and Arcane Strike could make for some good damage. DFI especially, since it helps the entire party (well, every ally who can hear the bard). Arcane Strike gives a handy boost to attacks and a (stacking) bonus to damage.

[poignant123]

Well, you have Haste and all sorts of buff spells. As mentioned earlier, it's possible to use Dragonfire Inspiration to get large amounts of additional dice damage with your weapon.

Try using a Whip Dagger, it's from A&E. It's essentially a whip that can do lethal damage as well as affect armored foes. Use Combat Expertise with Improved Disarm to disarm foes. Use Improved Trip to well... trip. Get Combat Reflexes to take advantage of their new AoO provoking conditions.

Wouldn't recommend Arcane Strike, Bards don't get enough spells per day to power it. You're better off having an extra attack from Haste than to get 3d4 damage on your next attack routine.

[Amphetryon]

It's setting-specific, but the Warrior Skald in Forgotten Realms can give a decent boost to combat efficacy, in addition to the DFI route absolmorph mentioned.

[LansXero]

Bard-barian imho. DFI goes great with whirling frenzy, and then you add the pounce ACF. Also, try a race that will let him get good things to alter-self into :D

[Saintheart]

In terms of items, a Crystal Echoblade addresses some of the issues with damage output that come from Snowflake Wardance, and from memory it'll only set you back about 4,000 gp or so.

[B1okHead]

You might want to think about savage bard from unearthed arcana for starters.

[Eldariel]

Straight Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike would do very respectably. Add Knowledge Devotion if willing to invest skillpoints into the deal and you get even more good stuff. And then, one level of Sacred Exorcist into Divine Might for Cha to damage Cha+3 times per day (for one entire round, all attacks). That should get you started. Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4 would work well, for example. Or Bard 8/Full BAB 2/etc.

[dextercorvia]

If you go Sacred Exorcist, you can take Travel Devotion and get Slippers of Battledancing for Cha instead of Str on Attack and Damage among other things.

[Waker]

Well, the War Chanter from CW is quite nice. You don't get any spell progression, but they have some fun bardic music options like Inspire Toughness (+2 temp hp for each War Chanter level + Diehard at lvl 6), Inspire Recklessness (Rage) and Inspire Legion (find best BAB in the party, everyone uses it for duration of song.) And the class has a d8 HD with best BAB progression.

[Optimator]

Inspire Recklessness is a LOT better than rage!

[MeeposFire]

There are various ways of getting double song or you can sing one song and then sing another song the next round. If you have extend song and extra song you can get huge numbers from dragonfire inspiration and inspire courage. Its too bad you can not get just a feat from TOB so you could get a swift action singing and one level of warlblade/crusader so you could use it. With words of creation your bonuses will break campaigns though that requires being exalted.

Warchanter can give you double song. Best part of the path in many ways.

[Chambers]

Battle Sorcerer into Prestige Bard is another way of making a Bard. You still get to cast in light armor and sing bard songs, but you get Sor/Wiz casting. Which is nice.

Petition the DM to remove Bluff and add Perform (Battle Sorcerer removes Bluff and adds Intimidate, so it's not an unreasonable request).

[Bang!]

Battle Sorcerer into Prestige Bard is another way of making a Bard. You still get to cast in light armor and sing bard songs, but you get Sor/Wiz casting. Which is nice.

I'm not really sure what this gains over Lyric Thaumaturge, and it loses tons of skills, music uses and CL.

Lyric Thaumaturge can also be pretty ridiculous with spells like Sonic Weapon or Energy Substitution/Born of Three Thunders Flame daggers.

[Chambers]

It gains by being simpler and not ridiculous compared to some of the ways used to boost Bards.

[pilvento]

{Scrubbed}

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It gains by being simpler and not ridiculous compared to some of the ways used to boost Bards.

By using a PrC version of a base class? Which is supposed to be used only when the standard version is not in use?

As far as a Battle Bard build, you could go for the Two Weapon Fighting route with Dragonfire Inspiration and some IC boosting, or the Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz route with Slippers of Battledancing and some IC boosting. You'll note that Inspire Courage optimization is a feature of both of these - a +10 to attack and damage (or a +10d6 with DFI, or both with DFI and Lingering Song) is that good - and they both work well with Snowflake Wardance. If the DM is open to it, have your Bard pick up Leadership for an Incantatrix cohort with Persistent Spell, then use Metamagic effect on your music to have both IC and DFI on all the time, which saves you uses of Bardic Music for other things (Inspire Greatness, Snowflake Wardance, what have you) though many DMs won't go for it. Obviously TWFing requires fewer feats, but if you can get enough feats to pull it off I prefer the Spring attacker. See if you can convince your DM to merge the Spring Attack line into one feat.

You could also, if you're not too lactose intolerant, you can use Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment to get the Time or Celerity Domain (I think it's one of those two) to get Haste early, and go Bard 6/Swiftblade 4/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade 5/Fullcasting PrC 3 (or Sublime Chord 3).

[Endarire]

Breaking Down Inspire Courage, Handbook Edition

[Chambers]

By using a PrC version of a base class? Which is supposed to be used only when the standard version is not in use?

Yes. Primarily because you keep nearly all of the Bard class features (loss out on Suggestion but later get Mass Suggestion) and get Sorcerer/Wizard spells in addition to Bard only spells. And you can up to 8th level Sor/Wiz spells without having to go into flavor specific PrC's like Sublime Chord. And because you have those more useful higher level spells you don't need to cheese out with Incantrix companions or be forced to make a Snowflake Swiftblade in order to remain competitive.

So, yeah. It's simple, effective, retains the base flavor of the Bard and allows for further specialization (feats, spells, prc's, etc).

[Flickerdart]

Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows. 12k GP, CHA to damage, all day, every day. Slippers of Batledancing. 33,750, CHA to attack and damage as long as you move 10ft. Dragonfire Inspiration. Replaces Inspire Courage with +Xd6 fire damage dice. Between these, you'll be dishing out enough pain.

[Popertop]

Does the dashing swordsman class exist?
If it does, you should totally take levels in it.
I would pay money to see people pun fight in their campaigns.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would suggest pumping Inspire Courage, with DFI, then going into War Chanter. Even without ToB stuff, you're still going to have crazy IC numbers, and since you're going to end up with only loosing a single point of BAB, the Song of Legion is going to help out the rest of the non-full-bab party members.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yes. Primarily because you keep nearly all of the Bard class features (loss out on Suggestion but later get Mass Suggestion) and get Sorcerer/Wizard spells in addition to Bard only spells. And you can up to 8th level Sor/Wiz spells without having to go into flavor specific PrC's like Sublime Chord. And because you have those more useful higher level spells you don't need to cheese out with Incantrix companions or be forced to make a Snowflake Swiftblade in order to remain competitive.

So, yeah. It's simple, effective, retains the base flavor of the Bard and allows for further specialization (feats, spells, prc's, etc).

You don't need an Incantatrix Cohort (Bards do get sufficient uses of Bardic Music). Nor do you need Snowflake Wardance (or Swiftblade) though it helps. Either of my suggestions are just straight Bard, or Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 if you really want 9th level spells. Either of which strikes me as simpler and more elegant than using a Sorcerer ACF and an PrC variant of a base class. Both work with what the Bard gets, namely, Inspire Courage and a typically high Charisma, and achieve what the OP wants, which is a combat effective Bard.

[A Ladder]

In terms of items, a Crystal Echoblade addresses some of the issues with damage output that come from Snowflake Wardance, and from memory it'll only set you back about 4,000 gp or so.

this.
Crystal Echoblade, snowflake wardance, probably weapon finesse, dragonfire inspiration, Haste = lots of damage potential.

Throw in some Whirlingblade spells and you can hit multiple opponents as well.
There are also bard spells that make it so opponents take more damage from sonic attacks (I can't remember it right now, it's in the spell compendium level 2 or 3 spell) so helllloooo Crystal echoblade!

[BeholderSlayer]

this.
Crystal Echoblade, snowflake wardance, probably weapon finesse, dragonfire inspiration, Haste = lots of damage potential.

Depending what level you start at, skip the weapon finesse and go purely off CHA. Slippers of Battledancing are about 34k and let you use charisma to-hit and damage instead of your normal stat.

Tack on Snowflake Wardance and Power Attack for full every time since you get double CHA to hit.

[Optimator]

Creaking Cacophony is the spell that makes creatures vulnerable to sonic damage. Bladeweave, Dolorous Blow, Greater Mirror Image, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Blink, Empyreal Ecstasy, Allegro, War Cry, and of course Inspirational Boost are all great battle-bard spells.

[Thespianus]

Gaining Sneak Attack would help too, right? 1 level of Rogue or Spellthief might hurt casting, but with 1D6+Level in extra damage from Sneak Attack + the Craven feat, the damage can go up rapidly.

Maybe there's some Bard-Rogue multiclassing feat too? Master Spellthief doesn't seem as good for a Bard/Spellthief as for a Wizard/Spellthief, but it aint bad either.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Gaining Sneak Attack would help too, right? 1 level of Rogue or Spellthief might hurt casting, but with 1D6+Level in extra damage from Sneak Attack + the Craven feat, the damage can go up rapidly.

Maybe there's some Bard-Rogue multiclassing feat too? Master Spellthief doesn't seem as good for a Bard/Spellthief as for a Wizard/Spellthief, but it aint bad either.

Sneak Attack is less useful than Dragonfire Inspiration, and provides a similar effect. And I don't know of a Bard/Rogue multiclassing feat (along the lines of Daring Outlaw, I presume) and I don't think Master Spellthief advances SA either.