What's up with pseudodragons?

[BeholderSlayer]

Why is the stat block for the improved familiar pseudodragon in the DMG is so drastically different from the MM and SRD? The DMG stats are pretty pathetic, they used even worse than the elite array.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Familiars are always just bog-standard, which is why the save DC is lower, the stats are worse and so on.

[BeholderSlayer]

Familiars are always just bog-standard, which is why the save DC is lower, the stats are worse and so on.

Bog standard? I'm not familiar with the term.

[gbprime]

Bog standard? I'm not familiar with the term.

For any term you're not familiar with, there's Urban Dictionary!

Caution... Urban Dictionary may cause you to become familiar with terms you never wanted to be familiar with in the first place. Use caution.

[Ernir]

Those are the 3.0 Pseudodragon statistics, looks like. At least when it comes to the ability scores and the poison save DC.

From the 3.0 SRD:

Pseudodragon
Tiny Dragon
Hit Dice: 2d12+2 (15 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 15 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
AC: 18 (+2 size, +6 natural)
Attacks: Sting +4 melee, bite -1 melee
Damage: Sting 1d3 and poison, bite 1
Face/Reach: 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft./0 ft. (5_ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: See invisibility, telepathy, immunities, SR_19
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha_10
Skills: Hide +16*, Intuit Direction +3, Listen +5, Search_+2, Spot_+5
Feats: Alertness
Climate/Terrain: Temperate and warm forest
Organization: Solitary, pair, or clutch (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral good
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Tiny)
A pseudodragon egg can fetch a price of up to 10,000 gp, and a hatchling as much as 20,000 gp.

Combat
Poison (Ex): Sting, Fortitude save (DC 12); initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 days.
See Invisibility (Ex): Pseudodragons continuously see invisibility as the spell, with a range of 60 feet.
Telepathy (Su): Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet.
Immunities (Ex): Pseudodragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects.
Skills: Pseudodragons have a chameleonlike ability that grants them a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks. *In forests or overgrown areas, this bonus improves to +8.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Bog standard? I'm not familiar with the term.

In this case, it means that all stats on the familiar are either a 10 or 11 base score, before racial modifiers or otherwise adjusted for it being a familiar.

[Urpriest]

In this case, it means that all stats on the familiar are either a 10 or 11 base score, before racial modifiers or otherwise adjusted for it being a familiar.

Which are the same as those in the MM. So that's not the explanation.

I agree with Ernir, it looks like a misprint.

[Welknair]

At will telepathy. My party got one and now it's standard procedure to Silence the battle area and just talk through the dragon who's at a safe distance.

[hamishspence]

Which are the same as those in the MM. So that's not the explanation.

I agree with Ernir, it looks like a misprint.

Poisons in 3.5 DMG are the same as in 3.0- even though at least one of the creatures doesn't do damage to the same stat.

Specifically- monstrous scorpions- in 3.0 their poison did Str damage- in 3.5 it does Con damage-
but monstrous scorpion poison in 3.5 DMG does Str damage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of 3.5 DMG cribbed a lot of stats from 3.0 sources- but didn't get that some things would be changed in the 3.5 MM.

[Bayar]

Poisons in 3.5 DMG are the same as in 3.0- even though at least one of the creatures doesn't do damage to the same stat.

Specifically- monstrous scorpions- in 3.0 their poison did Str damage- in 3.5 it does Con damage-
but monstrous scorpion poison in 3.5 DMG does Str damage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of 3.5 DMG cribbed a lot of stats from 3.0 sources- but didn't get that some things would be changed in the 3.5 MM.

They printed the 3.0 epic druid character progression instead of a 3.5 one. At least they errata'd it.

[JaronK]

Remember that the primary source for creatures is the MM, not the DMG, so if they contradict the MM trumps.

JaronK

[BeholderSlayer]

Remember that the primary source for creatures is the MM, not the DMG, so if they contradict the MM trumps.

JaronK

I see what you did there.

PS - should be back around more, will have time to tend to that discussion soon

[Telonius]

Those are the 3.0 Pseudodragon statistics, looks like. At least when it comes to the ability scores and the poison save DC.

From the 3.0 SRD:

Poison save DC looks like it ought to - the save DC is normally 10 plus 1/2 HD plus Con modifier (in this case 1). In the MM entry, the creature has only 2hd, so the save would be 12, with an additional +2 racial bonus for a final DC of 14. The DMG entry is taking into account the extra HD for being a familiar of a 7th-level caster. 7/2 rounded down is 3, plus 1 con plus 2 racial, gives DC 16, which is what the DMG shows.

Most of the differences between the DMG and the MM entries can be explained by two things: DMG assumes the familiar belongs to a level-7 caster, and gives it the bonuses; and the DMG's version has -5 strength, +4 Dex, and secondary poison damage measured in days.

So yes, it looks like they used the 3.0 Pseudo, and slapped familiar bonuses on to it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Just for curiosity: wasn't the DMG printed before the Monster Manual? I think it was a 1-3 month difference between one and the other. It was easier to do the Player's Handbook because the rules in there are pretty self-contained; the PHB and the DMG are inter-dependent of each other but designed in a way players don't need the DMG to create their character (only to improve it).

So, it might make sense that, since the Monster Manual was incomplete or perhaps on editing (or perhaps it wasn't accessible to the DMG design and development team), they took stats from the earlier Monster Manual thinking that stuff wouldn't change drastically; hence, why that happened.

This is mostly presumptions, but if you think about it, it makes sense. They didn't figure they were making a slightly different system at the beginning, actually.

[JaronK]

I see what you did there.

PS - should be back around more, will have time to tend to that discussion soon

See all you want, primary sourcing and contradictions of primary sources are a standard rule, and the Monster Manual IS the primary source on creatures. Here we have a direct contradiction (both are saying what the stats of a psuedodragon are), so one trumps the other... and there's a standard rule for which in that situation.

JaronK

[Togo]

Poison save DC looks like it ought to - the save DC is normally 10 plus 1/2 HD plus Con modifier (in this case 1). In the MM entry, the creature has only 2hd, so the save would be 12, with an additional +2 racial bonus for a final DC of 14. The DMG entry is taking into account the extra HD for being a familiar of a 7th-level caster. 7/2 rounded down is 3, plus 1 con plus 2 racial, gives DC 16, which is what the DMG shows.

Would the poison save DC increase with the familiar's hp? I thought poison save DC was based on base creature HD, not actual HD.

The 3.5 pseudodragon makes a great familiar. I had a blast with mine.

[Ravens_cry]

They are great for arguments of poison not been evil since they have it, and use it, and are Always neutral good.

[Urpriest]

They are great for arguments of poison not been evil since they have it, and use it, and are Always neutral good.

Who says they actually use it? Obviously they're just hiding the poison in their tails so evil people can't get at it.

Also, the "poison is evil" thing doesn't include sleep poisons, which explains how Drow remain Exalted. Wait...

[hamishspence]

They are great for arguments of poison not been evil since they have it, and use it, and are Always neutral good.

Couatls are a better known example- since they're Always Lawful Good outsiders- and their poison definitely does ability damage. And it's not a ravage (though it can be "purified" and made into one)- it works on beings of all alignments.

"inflicting undue suffering is evil" is fine.
"ability damaging poisons inflict undue suffering" is more dubious.

Probably better to go with it being DM's choice as to which poisons "inflict undue suffering" and which don't- being relatively painless killers or paralysing agents.