New to 4e, and wondering about a Monk partial multiclass

[JET73L]

I mostly work with 3.5 edition (and recently play Pathfinder, on a related note), but the vast majority of my friends and their friends (including my significant other and her family) play 4e or no D&D system at all and I was planning on joining a campaign that some of them are starting in the near future. I don't actually own any of the 4th edition books, and can't find a compilation of freely released 4e information online*, so I can't research this until/unless I borrow someone else's books, and that may take a while.
*I am not counting the D&D 4.0 Wiki. It doesn't even have Monk or Sorceror pages, just links to the empty pages in the Classes page).

I was planning on creating a Monk with at least one level in Sorceror, but from what I've been able to find online and from a Level 2 practice session I've played, sorcerors have been significantly revamped so that a single level in Sorceror is more powerful but less versatile, or about as relatively powerful but far less versatile. Thus, I have several questions, in (mostly) decreasing order of importance:

• Do 4e Monks still have the restriction that they can never gain Monk levels again after raising another class level?

• Is taking a side-level or two (as opposed to running headlong into a multiclass) worth it in the first place?

• Is a single level of Sorceror useful (especially to a monk), or would it require something closer to four or five levels before there would be any appreciable advantage after the first couple or few levels of Monk?

• Do the Psionics worked into the 4e Monk soon nullify early 4e Sorceror levels, or are Monks still contact-fighting skilled to the point that a couple of low-level ranged spells would be useful?

• Are low-level Sorcerors still useful outside of battle (the sorceror I had was a pre-made Changeling whose only out-of-battle skills and techniques were racial, not class-based)?

• P.S.: Are Sorcerors more or less CHA-based (Will) than 3.5e? Is it still possible to have a low-level Reflex-stat (DEX, INT) sorceror? Are Monks more reliant on Will than the internet suggests, which varies from "not very" to "Strength and Reflex are important for monks. Will? What about it?" If sorcery is statistically irreconcilable with monkery in 4e, I'm probably not even going to bother.

If any of my gathered/inferred information is horribly, horribly wrong, or there are threads specifically about any aspect of this post, I'd certainly appreciate being corrected and/or given a link to the appropriate information.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: This belongs in roleplaying games, which is for tabletop RPG's discussion. Homebrew is specifically for posting your own homebrew material to display, have it critiqued, or whatever.

Thread moved.

[WitchSlayer]

You don't take levels in a class, you take feats or hybrid. Monk and sorcerer probably wouldn't synergize well, but if you have good enough charisma as a monk to take the multiclass sorcerer feat, then go ahead. I don't think it would give you any spells (You would have to take two feats for that and it would replace one of your other powers). Taking multiclass feats, in general, is a pretty good idea though.

Monks are still primarily contact fighters, but they have some cool movement stuff that lets them get in the face of enemies. Both sorcerers and monks are useful outside of battle, depending on how you build them

If you need help creating a character, as the idea of multiclass feats are new to DnD, try to check out the character builder if someone has an account or something, it will help give you everything you need and clear some things up. I hope this was helpful.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't actually own any of the 4th edition books, and can't find a compilation of freely released 4e information online*

That's because there isn't any (apart from a handful of previews on the WOTC site).

I was planning on creating a Monk with at least one level in Sorceror,

4E doesn't work that way. You have one class, and take levels only in that. You can, however, get a small amount of powers from another class through multiclassing.

Sorceror is more powerful but less versatile, or about as relatively powerful but far less versatile.

Both monk and sorcerer are strikers, i.e. classes that primarily focus on dealing damage. Monk is mostly single-target and melee, sorcerer is mostly multi-target and ranged. Since sorcerers work on charisma and monks on dexterity, the two don't mesh particularly well.

Are low-level Sorcerors still useful outside of battle

Sorcerers do not get a lot of out-of-combat powers.

If sorcery is statistically irreconcilable with monkery in 4e, I'm probably not even going to bother.

Your best bet is to pick a mechanic that you like and take your class for that, and do the rest in fluff. For example, if you want a dual-wielding rogue in 4E, the answer is to make a ranger and just say that you're a thieving scoundrel. You haven't specified what exactly you want from sorcerer or monk, but if the answer is e.g. "ascetic that throws fireballs" then a decent suggestion may be to look into the wizard, warlock, or psion classes.

HTH!

[JET73L]

The Mod They Call Me: This belongs in roleplaying games, which is for tabletop RPG's discussion. Homebrew is specifically for posting your own homebrew material to display, have it critiqued, or whatever.

Thread moved.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Based on the title of one of the stickies, I thought that this forum (which I checked first) was for forum RPs. Thank you for moving it.

What WitchSlayer said.

Thanks, that explains the multiclassing (er, secondary class ability thingy) system better than any previous explanation I had gotten. I think I'll see if the spell feat secondary class thingy is efficient enough for my taste (be it at the start of the game or as I progress), and then see if the DM is fine with at least one of the specialized Sorcerer classes of which I've seen hints in my research that mostly use Dex-based spells.
Would I be correct in assuming that this means Monks can take feats for secondary class skills without losing their ability to train as a Monk (since that would pretty much nullify their ability to be useful for more than one or two more levels)?

That's because there isn't any (apart from a handful of previews on the WOTC site).

...Monk is mostly single-target and melee, sorcerer is mostly multi-target and ranged...

Sorcerers do not get a lot of out-of-combat powers.

Your best bet is to pick a mechanic that you like and take your class for that, and do the rest in fluff. For example, if you want a dual-wielding rogue in 4E, the answer is to make a ranger and just say that you're a thieving scoundrel. You haven't specified what exactly you want from sorcerer or monk, but if the answer is e.g. "ascetic that throws fireballs" then a decent suggestion may be to look into the wizard, warlock, or psion classes.

HTH!

I know the SRD hasn't been released. Glad to know that there isn't a repository for the information that has been released, and I haven't just spontaneously lost my ability to do proper online research.

I had been hoping to use those to balance things out a little, so I could mostly stick to the traditional Monk style without being in a real bind if we're up against the sort of situation that is anathema to monks where I'm used to being even a weak sorcerer anyway.

Didn't figure they did (Edit: based on the current, seemingly cantrip-free Sorcerer spell system), but I had hoped so. Ah, well.

My character concept was more like "racially-natural light magic user who focused on Tae Kwon Do instead of Druidry as part of the whole reason for adventuring" than "ascetic who throws fireballs". The choice was partially because Monk seemed to be the best non-magic class for me to try first, based on my play styles in various games and RPGs, and partly because the idea of a dryad doing a flying dragon kick or "Flurry of Blows" seems incredibly cool. If I wanted "ascetic who throws fireballs" I would have chosen to be a Wizard, pumped up my Kn:Religion skill, and called myself a job-not-class monk. I understand why you thought I might have been trying to do that, though, since I know more than a few examples of people who tried to force their Rogue to be a thieving Ranger or their Paladin to be a Fighter with a pet and a morality complex.

I think that did help, thank you.

Thank you both for your input!

[hamishspence]

While all Sorcerers are Cha-based- the Cosmic Sorcerer from Arcane Power is based on Str as a major second stat, and the Storm Sorcerer is based on Dexterity.

So there might be a very limited amount of synergy- if the build plays to the Sorcerer's secondary stat.

[Kurald Galain]

Would I be correct in assuming that this means Monks can take feats for secondary class skills without losing their ability to train as a Monk

Yes.

It's very easy: you take one feat to "multiclass" into a secondary class. You can only do this once (except for bards) so you can't have a tertiary class. These feats are generally very good. Then, you can take up to three feats to swap a power from your original class with a power from your secondary class. These tradeoffs are occasionally very good, but generally they're not.

I could mostly stick to the traditional Monk style without being in a real bind if we're up against the sort of situation that is anathema to monks

There are no situations that are anathema to monks (or to any other class). 4E is explicitly designed so that this should never happen.

Didn't figure they did (Edit: based on the current, seemingly cantrip-free Sorcerer spell system), but I had hoped so. Ah, well.

If it's cantrips you want, there's a few items that give you that.

Also, there isn't actually a dryad race, but there are several elf-like races (and one plant race) that come close.

[JET73L]

While all Sorcerers are Cha-based- the Cosmic Sorcerer from Arcane Power is based on Str as a major second stat, and the Storm Sorcerer is based on Dexterity.

So there might be a very limited amount of synergy- if the build plays to the Sorcerer's secondary stat.

The ones of which I had read being significantly Dex-based were the Storm Sorcerer and possibly the Chaos Sorcerer (I wasn't exactly sure about the latter, since the mention I happened to see wasn't too detailed and I haven't yet looked up the specifics). I'd planned on looking into the details on those and any others I could find when I could borrow one of the core books or Arcane Power.

There are no situations that are anathema to monks (or to any other class). 4E is explicitly designed so that this should never happen.

If it's cantrips you want, there's a few items that give you that.

Also, there isn't actually a dryad race, but there are several elf-like races (and one plant race) that come close.

Cool. I'm still getting used to playing in 4e, let alone designing things around it. It is so strange to experience some of the changes, since it's more like a video game (and not in a bad way, in my opinion so far) than a fantasy universe simulator.

Not really. I like cantrips, since I'm used to Bards and Sorcerers, but my real reason for wanting to "multiclass" was the Level 1 type of spells. Magic items are always good for cantrips that a character doesn't inherently know (my Pathfinder DM, for example, makes it a point to let every character start with a Cantrip-level [or weakened Level 1-ish] magic item just to make things more interesting without unbalancing the game).

I already cleared it with the DM that I can use a version of the 3.5 Dryad modified in a way that it is compatible with 4e (or more likely a 4e "generic unspecified race template" modified to act like a 4e-compatible 3.5e Dryad). I've seen player character versions of the 4e Dryad, and the 4e Dryads themselves, and I find it to be too much Bog Monster/Wooden Half-Orc and not enough Wooden Half-Elf/Wooden Wood Elf.

[hamishspence]

The Wood Nymph in 4E MM3 might be closer- they're more like classic dryads- bound to a tree, and never leaving it. They look like the 3.5 dryad.

[JET73L]

The Wood Nymph in 4E MM3 might be closer- they're more like classic dryads- bound to a tree, and never leaving it. They look like the 3.5 dryad.

Oh, thanks for the suggestion!

[Loren]

Another thing you should be aware of, if you aren't already is the ritual magic system. It's a class ability for most caster classes or a feat for anybody else that allows the character to cast spells by preforming rituals with skill checks and paying a cost in ingredients. These rituals are usually too slow for use in combat (by RAW, but some gaming groups have different rules), but they give a wide range of options. It seems entirely reasonable to have a monk who lays the smack down on the baddies with hands and feet and then whips out a book and performs various rites. One of the neat things about Ritual Casting is that it can be used to perform arcane, religious, healing, and natural magic if the character can make the skill check. Thus, it can be tailored to your character concept.

[gourdcaptain]

Unfortunatly, Monks don't really work the best with arcane spellcasters in 4e - I've only ever got working in my experimentation divine classes very well. Invoker (divine wizard equivalent, gets powers from a personal link to a god) is something you might want to look at - runs off of Wis, a Monk secondary, doesn't have particularly strong secondary stat requirements either. (I've wanted to play a Monk/Invoker hybrid for a while).

[Tengu_temp]

If you want to have some casting ability as a monk, you can always be a half-elf and pick a sorcerer spell as your dilettante power. Though it will most likely suck if you don't have good charisma, which is just a waste for a monk. And half-elves make pretty bad monks in general.

I'm pretty sure there are some monk powers that have clearly supernatural effects, like making your hands burst into flames (or even GLOW WITH AN AWESOME POWER) or even attacking on a distance with blasts of ki. Pick those for a more arcane flavour.

[Salbazier]

Or maybe you can multiclass into a divine class and re-flavor it into arcane?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Also: If at-will cantrips are important, you want to play a Wizard not a Sorcerer. They get a bunch of at-will cantrips: Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand and Light. Handy!

Um... but if you want your primary fighting style to be fisticuffs, you're probably going to want to be a Monk. IIRC you can't take Monk + MC Wizard and get the Cantrips but maybe you can try a Monk/Wizard Hybrid Class (from PHB III). I don't have much experience with Hybrids but a WIS/STR Monk probably works well with an INT/WIS ("orb") Wizard.

[nightwyrm]

Also: If at-will cantrips are important, you want to play a Wizard not a Sorcerer. They get a bunch of at-will cantrips: Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand and Light. Handy!

Um... but if you want your primary fighting style to be fisticuffs, you're probably going to want to be a Monk. IIRC you can't take Monk + MC Wizard and get the Cantrips but maybe you can try a Monk/Wizard Hybrid Class (from PHB III). I don't have much experience with Hybrids but a WIS/STR Monk probably works well with an INT/WIS ("orb") Wizard.

Monks are dex based with str, con or wis secondary. So they don't tend to blend too well with wizards.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Monks are dex based with str, con or wis secondary. So they don't tend to blend too well with wizards.

Shoot, I thought they were WIS-main for some reason

Eh.... you could just go Hybrid Monk/Wizard and not take any Wizard attack powers, right? Dump INT and you still can use Cantrips and all their fancy Utility powers.

[Kurald Galain]

Eh.... you could just go Hybrid Monk/Wizard and not take any Wizard attack powers, right? Dump INT and you still can use Cantrips and all their fancy Utility powers.

'fraid not. Being a hybrid requires that you take one (each) of at-will, daily, encounter, and utility of both classes.

Also, if you're new to 4E, I would strongly recommend against making a hybrid. They're very easy to mess up and make underpowered. Also, both monk/sorcerer and monk/wizard are pretty bad hybrid combinations. Multiclassing is much more effective for those.

[Oracle_Hunter]

'fraid not. Being a hybrid requires that you take one (each) of at-will, daily, encounter, and utility of both classes.

Also, if you're new to 4E, I would strongly recommend against making a hybrid. They're very easy to mess up and make underpowered. Also, both monk/sorcerer and monk/wizard are pretty bad hybrid combinations. Multiclassing is much more effective for those.

Yeah... I normally argue against Hybrids too, but I didn't know any other way to get the Cantrips the OP seemed excited about.

[ShaggyMarco]

So, you wanted Sorcerer for the cool utility/cantrip-type powers? Awesome.

What you want to play is a Monk (which, a Wis/Dex race would work great with. You could probably refluff Wilden (are they Wis/Con or Dex?) into a decent wood nymph) and to take the Ritual Casting Feat (which requires training in Arcana or Religion--not hard to do.) This will give you lots of cool, if slow and expensive, out-of-combat magical options, plus you can kick and punch with the best of them.

You might also like the Hedge Wizard's Gloves, a fairly low-level magic item that grants prestidigitation and mage hand at-will.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah... I normally argue against Hybrids too, but I didn't know any other way to get the Cantrips the OP seemed excited about.

I suppose Hedge Wizard Gloves would do the trick.

to take the Ritual Casting Feat (which requires training in Arcana or Religion--not hard to do.) This will give you lots of cool, if slow and expensive, out-of-combat magical options,

Rituals are, if anything, the exact opposite of cantrips: slow and expensive instead of fast and cheap.

I'd suggest asking your DM if you can spend a feat to get wizard cantrips. That strikes me as a reasonable tradeoff. Alternatively, ask for the Wild Talent Master feat from Dark Sun (which gives you three wild talents, which are essentially psionic cantrips).

[hamishspence]

Alternatively, ask for the Wild Talent Master feat from Dark Sun (which gives you three wild talents, which are essentially psionic cantrips).

Could be a good place to start for homebrewing an equivalent arcane feat. Maybe call it "Magical Training" - a bit like the old 3.5 feats that granted cantrip-type spells as spell-like abilities.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Actually... being a straight monk might be sufficient.

I mean, Monks get a lot of awesome mobility and stuff, and can do pretty amazing things with the "Move" portions of their power. Plus, Skills are sufficient that a Monk can be plenty useful out of combat without resorting to magic.

...definitely need to hear more from the OP. Maybe we can even generate a Build if we know the level he's looking for.

[JET73L]

Ritual Feat: Could be very useful. Not what I'm looking for, but it might be a good feat to take at a later level. Probably a much later level.

Wizard cantrips: Sounds more immediately versatile than the Sorcerer low-level power set, but I really don't like the Wizards' Vancian magic preparation, so I'll have to wait until I have the relevant information for 4e wizards and see if the changes that have been made seem worth trying. I don't want to waste my only multiclass option on a casting style I can't stand to use.

Divine class: That's a maybe. Some divine classes I don't want to work with on this character, others I would specifically have to check with the DM first. Seems like a good idea, even if it might not turn out to be what I personally need. It also works at least as well in-character as the Sorcery classing.

Hedge Wizard's Gloves: Sounds useful. I'll chalk that up for a "maybe now, maybe later" mark, depending on how the other ideas work out and if they are eventually made redundant or not.

Hybrid: Wasn't planning on it.

Wild Talent: Seems useful for any psionic class, and is especially useful for someone who likes cantrips and otherwise doesn't get them.

Straight-up Monk: I'll have to see more about how Psionics are implemented for mid-level Monks before leaning any further one way or the other, but it is an option.


I am almost completely sure that the campaign will start at level 1, though the DM may still choose to allow us to start with a couple of levels instead of as adventuring novices. How long I intend to take in stabilizing the Monk-with-a-dash-of-Sorcerer balance could be anywhere between Level 1 (since I don't actually need to Multiclass in 4e) and Level 4-ish, depending on
1: whether I decide to go with more long-term sorcery battle benefits or just a dash with more immediate Monk benefits, and
2: whether or not I can continue with minor sorcerous additions later in the campaign (I'm pretty sure I can).

I am very likely going to have access to borrowed copies of the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Arcane Power, and Martial Power books later today, soon, and possibly other core and supplement books. I will be able to research more detail in at least some of these suggestions and my ideas (certainly the more major ones).

Thank you for your help so far, everyone. Sorry for any trouble that my lack of 4e knowledge and experience has/will/may brought/bring.

[Loren]

Vancian casting is gone in 4E. All spells fall into the catagories of at-will, encounter, daily, or ritual. Basically they are just like any other powers with the addition of ritual casting.

You're going to need PHB3 for monk and PHB2 for sorceror, they are no-longer in PHB1 (sorc's fllavour has been changed from dragon blooded to being more of a conduit of chaos, FYI). If you want to hurt things with magic, you should also consider Warlocks as they are similar to sorc, but with diferent fluff (pacts with powerful beings for magic).

I did some experiments in the character builder. There is basically no way to multiclass between Monk and arcane without gimping a monk's primary ablities ( you need to meet an ability cut off of int of cha 13 to qualify for arcane classes. Since Monks don't use thos abilities they are essencially lost ability points for the monk). It can be done, for sure, but not if you want to max-min.
---
edit, 4e is design't to keep pc's running along particular tracks (with manny ptions within the tracks, admittedly). The concept you're going for here breaks off the tracks a bit, so you may find your self needed to comprimise/re-imagine the concept.

In my experiment, I came up with a human monk that can have ritual casting and all the related skills by level 2, plus a damage bonus once per encounter. You don't need to wait too long to take advantage of ritual casting.
Also, you should know about martial practices, which are training a character can buy to enlarge the uses that can be made of skills. Magic is not the only way to get a diverse range of options build into a character in 4E (Martial Powers 2 is the source for many of these practices).

[Oracle_Hunter]

Wizard cantrips: Sounds more immediately versatile than the Sorcerer low-level power set, but I really don't like the Wizards' Vancian magic preparation, so I'll have to wait until I have the relevant information for 4e wizards and see if the changes that have been made seem worth trying. I don't want to waste my only multiclass option on a casting style I can't stand to use.

There's no more Vancian Casting.

The Wizard's deal is that they get a bunch of Cantrips and they can swap out their Daily Attack Powers and Utility Powers at the start of each day.

Straight-up Monk: I'll have to see more about how Psionics are implemented for mid-level Monks before leaning any further one way or the other, but it is an option.

Monks aren't really "psionic-y" in the way that Psions etc. are. Their shtick is that depending on attack power they use they will have access to a special movement type.

Also - get a subscription to DDI. A one-month subscription is only $10 and gives you access to the Character Builder - which includes every book and magazine published to date. If you're going to be in a campaign, split a year subscription with your DM and fellow party members; split 4 ways it'll only be about $20 per person.

That will answer most of your basic questions and make your life a lot easier.

[Loren]

DDI is indeed very useful. Once you get the hang of it you can generate characters very quickly and make alterations, which will be recalcuated instantly. The Character Builder is almost a necessity. That said, reading through PHB1 is also very important. Alot has changed since 3x. Terms are different. Character building is very different. Encounter design is different. etc.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Alot has changed since 3x.

Yes, Alot has indeed changed with the new edition. He is now a Tiefling Resourceful Warlord

[MeeposFire]

Be a monk of your choice and to get your cantrips take a wild talent from dark sun campaign setting. Beg your DM for it. It will not unbalance the character and normal DS characters start with a wild talent. In addition you can get more with another feat. With one feat you can get 3 more wild talents. Wild talents include telepathy, item teleportation, mage hand stuff, and other fun abilities. They also have a psionic flavor which is more in line in traditional monkness and can be easily reflavored as arcane if you like.

EDIT: The feat is wild talent master. It has no prerequisites so even if your DM will not give free wild talents like the campaign setting would you could still take this heroic tier feat to pick up 3 wild talents and there are a few nice choices. With this feat you can replicate most of the cantrip stuff.

[JET73L]

I got the DM's guide and Player's Handbooks 1-3 for the afternoon (no Martial Power or Arcane Power yet), and noticed that the low-level Warlock was more in line with what I expected from a low-level Sorcerer (though Sorcerer may or may not prove more useful and fitting to the character than Warlock). I also checked out the Wizard and Monk classes, and how the spell systems work. I think what I'm going to do is take pure Monk for the first two or three levels to see what the exact deficiencies are, if there are any, unless I see something that can be replaced and feel that the Wizard, Warlock, or Sorcerer offer something that will be useful then and in the future. I would get next to no appreciable net advantage from multiclassing as a Sorcerer until level 4 (aside from the lowest-level spells, if I really, really wanted one), so I plan to evaluate which options will work with my character's in-universe play style or be too detrimental to use at level 3. I particularly want to take a look at Arcane Power before I finalize my level 1 character. For the beginning of the campaign, I'll leave it as having the glimmerings of magic, but no telling whether it's just enough magic to succeed at academic Wizardry, a font of natural magic suitable for a secondary Sorcerer or Warlock, or something that will be overshadowed by the Ki/Psionics/What-have-you of Monkhood until the character works at training/channeling it.

I don't want to min-max, I just want to see if I can design the character the way I want without having to break the game to do it. DEX Sorcery or Wizardry seem like they might be the best ways to go about it, at least at the moment. If I can't put together a character that works without definitely abusing the rules, I intend to stick with pure Monk.

I'll see about suggesting DDI to the others. Since most of them have little to literally no spending money, even $20 might be too much, but if they all think it's a good idea that might work out.

Wild Magic is still a "see about it sooner or later" thing. If I decide that the Jenga tower of Monkiness will be toppled by the addition of Arcane LEGO, but still want out-of-battle minor spells for flavor and usefulness, that will be my first choice of feat. If I can spare a feat early enough, even if I haven't yet decided on a secondary class or none, it might be sooner in the campaign than expected.

And my goodness, have Wizards gotten a better spells-per-day deal than in previous editions when compared to other same-edition Arcane classes. While they still have the preparation drawback, they seem much more usable from the perspective of my thinking and gaming styles.