Parlaying going south, and surprise/initiative

[ffone]

PCs are interacting socially with NPC. Some skepticism and failed bluff checks but not currently violent.

NPC casts an enchantment spell in a way that makes the cast undetectable (conceal spellcasting skill trick from Complete Scoundrel, or Still + Silent Spell,or a spell-like ability such as succubus suggestion / charm monster).

My intuition was (assuming the PCs then react violently after the target(s) make a Will save) that initiative would then be rolled after that, much as if the concealed spellcast were a surprise round.

Should I consider it to be a surprise round action, or not a 'combat action' at all? The distinction, for example, is that if the PC rogue beats the NPC's initiative and attacks, the NPC would be considered flat-footed (-> sneak attack) only if the NPC 'hadn't acted yet in combat', so whether I consider the spellcast a 'surprise round' makes a difference in that respect.

[tuesdayscoming]

I would probably treat this as a surprise round. The NPC's spellcasting effectively marks the beginning of combat, so I'd rule that Init. is roled immediately after, and it goes normally from there.

[FelixG]

I would consider some things differently. I am not sure if you are aware of passing a save, though you might know if you failed one based on its effects.

If the players fly off the handle if you ask for a will save thats metagaming

instead just note what their will save is beore hand, ask them to roll a d20, then add it up yourself to see if they are under the effect.

and if the spell is still and silent they have no reason to jump into attack mode unless one of them can figure out a spell is being cast some how.

[Curmudgeon]

You're aware if you succeed on a saving throw; if you fail, you're clueless. So basically after that spell you've got a surprise round for the NPC spellcaster and those PCs who made their saving throws.

[Combat Reflexes]

Why should casting an enchantment spell cause a fight? I could perfectly see one of the NPCs dominating or charming one of the PCs without anyone noticing.

Even when they make the save, you can make it seem like they were using a nonmagical attempt to influence the PC's behaviour (Intimidating, Bluffing).
If you DM it well (passing notes to players), even metagamers don't have a clue about what's going on.

[Tyndmyr]

Failure is know by the target and will likely start combat. Treating this as the suprise round makes sense.

Success may not start combat. Or be visible at all.

[FelixG]

Failure is know by the target and will likely start combat. Treating this as the suprise round makes sense.

Success may not start combat. Or be visible at all.

can you link me to the SRD where it says the target knows they passed a save? It has been a point of contention in the past for my group.

[Curmudgeon]

Why should casting an enchantment spell cause a fight?

All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

It doesn't necessarily have to cause a fight, but an attack does constitute a trigger for a surprise round and combat-ready initiative ordering. What the characters do when they're on combat footing is up to them; violence is merely one option.

can you link me to the SRD where it says the target knows they passed a save? It has been a point of contention in the past for my group.

That's on Player's Handbook page 177 and also here.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

[Kuma Kode]

can you link me to the SRD where it says the target knows they passed a save? It has been a point of contention in the past for my group.

Spell Description Overview under Succeeding at a Saving Throw.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

On Topic: Yes, I would say the spellcasting was the surprise round, and initiative order goes from there.

[Claudius Maximus]

I would say that the spellcaster gets a sort of super-surprise round here. He gets his spell off, the PC(s) successfully save, and then the spellcaster and the PCs who saved have a surprise round. Otherwise you could get other characters who never noticed the spell at all beating the spellcaster in initiative, and they wouldn't have any reason to be rolling anything or fighting.

[Curmudgeon]

I would say that the spellcaster gets a sort of super-surprise round here. He gets his spell off, the PC(s) successfully save, and then the spellcaster and the PCs who saved have a surprise round.

That's all correct ─ except for your terminology. The spellcaster isn't acting in any round, because up until then the game wasn't being conducted in 6-second rounds. So the spellcaster could be casting a spell that takes a round, or one that takes an hour; it's all the same if the game isn't in combat timing. A Druid could cast Shadow Landscape (Spell Compendium, pages 184-185; 1 hour casting time) in forest terrain, and everybody would need to make a Reflex save to avoid getting entangled by the augmented growth. Then you roll initiative and the game starts in round timing.

[Jarawara]

Boy, that's a badly written rule.

"You feel a hostile force OR a tingle?" I can just see a DM ruling that all you felt was a tingle, and the players having to guess at what just happened.

If it was consistantly felt as a hostile force then I'd agree that the PC's would know they'd had spells cast at them. But if the DM can rule it simply as 'a tingle', then the players could be left uncertain.

I wish it were written with no uncertainty, but I suspect they may have done it this way so DM's could run their game their own way.

[ffone]

That's all correct ─ except for your terminology. The spellcaster isn't acting in any round, because up until then the game wasn't being conducted in 6-second rounds. So the spellcaster could be casting a spell that takes a round, or one that takes an hour; it's all the same if the game isn't in combat timing. A Druid could cast Shadow Landscape (Spell Compendium, pages 184-185; 1 hour casting time) in forest terrain, and everybody would need to make a Reflex save to avoid getting entangled by the augmented growth. Then you roll initiative and the game starts in round timing.

That's a great point, but the reason I need to decide whether to count the concealed spell as a 'surprise round' or 'not a round at all' is as follows:

Everyone in the thread seems to agree that after the spell is cast, then, assuming that at least one PC realizes what just happened (due to making the save and then alerting his friends by announcing it, perhaps), initiative is rolled.

But if the spellcasting NPC goes after some PCs, tehn whether she's considered 'flat-footed' against them b/c she 'hasn't acted yet in combat' depends on whether I consider that concealed spell to've been 'acting in combat' or not. Since we have a rogue with good initiative who'd want to sneak attack the NPC if he knows that she's been trying to charm/dominate him or his allies, the ruling is likely to matter.

[Curmudgeon]

A surprise round is limited to characters who are aware that there's an active conflict. The spellcaster who made the attack is certainly aware, and has already acted to bring about combat timing. So they're not flat-footed.

This seems like the most straightforward extension of the "surprise" rules to cover the case where everyone is aware of all parties, but only a few are aware that there's a conflict.

[FelixG]

But if the spellcasting NPC goes after some PCs, tehn whether she's considered 'flat-footed' against them b/c she 'hasn't acted yet in combat' depends on whether I consider that concealed spell to've been 'acting in combat' or not. Since we have a rogue with good initiative who'd want to sneak attack the NPC if he knows that she's been trying to charm/dominate him or his allies, the ruling is likely to matter.

The spell caster wouldn't be flat footed though. The spellcaster has hostile intent and she knows it so she is on guard, its just the PCs who are in the dark until they save against the spell.

At which point when the players start to draw their weapons she already knows her gambit has failed and is prepared

Edit: Sword'saged