Community Based Monster Classes VI

[TheGeckoKing]

Well, it's certainly.......original. I'm not sure how playable it is, but it seems like it could work. One question;
How would you adjudicate if someone wanted to specifically target one goblin?

[Hyudra]

Well, it's certainly.......original. I'm not sure how playable it is, but it seems like it could work. One question;
How would you adjudicate if someone wanted to specifically target one goblin?

You wouldn't. As with a swarm, they're hopping, jostling one another, moving from side to side and generally chaotic enough that you can't reasonably expect to hit one. In any event, the effect would be the same as hitting the group. You'd just detract from their hitpoint total, etc.

[TheGeckoKing]

You'd better put that in, then, I guess. I haven't really got much else to say, other than it's certainly something I've never seen before.

[NineThePuma]

... <<
>>

I want a similar Kobold creature =V

[TheGeckoKing]

The Pun-Pun Triad Quartet? Ew, I think that's best left avoided.

[NineThePuma]

Nah, Pun-Pun relies on DM fiat and has some LA.

Kobolds have Slight Build, and I think there's a feat that lets them share space...

[Hyudra]

Indeed. If the reception was positive and any issues could be hammered out, I think that particular concept could be extended to others, provided each retained some tricks or behaviors that fit their individual race/species.

There's even a decent pic for that:

Spoiler

Show

[flabort]

Wow. I want to play one.... the goblins, that is.
Presenting three times the target may be VERY bad for area spells, such as fireballs, and divination magic could be quite screwy.
Also, what happens when they gain/lose size categories?
If, for example, I want to take a class that increases the size category to medium, I'd not imagine too much change. But if it then gives a second increase, to large, what happens? What If a class shrinks me down to tiny?
Can multiple mobs (Aka two characters with this) interact?
Could this be extended to further levels to get more goblins in the mob (6 goblins = CR 6/3= CR 2)?
This class would be almost too great for Battlefield control wizards, AoO abusers, and a couple others.
What happens to roleplaying when the character also has the flaw giving them multiple personalities ? Speaking of which, what happens with flaws like, say, blind? Are all three goblins blind?

Class is great, just has a couple minor problems like that. Just needs a tiny toning down, and a few clarifications, in my opinion.

Lol, now I'm thinking of what would happen if I shrunk these guys to diminutive, made them Blind, and gave them wererat and bard levels.
Three blind mice! Three blind mice! See how they run! See... you get the picture.

[Hyudra]

Wow. I want to play one.... the goblins, that is.
Presenting three times the target may be VERY bad for area spells, such as fireballs, and divination magic could be quite screwy.
Also, what happens when they gain/lose size categories?
If, for example, I want to take a class that increases the size category to medium, I'd not imagine too much change. But if it then gives a second increase, to large, what happens? What If a class shrinks me down to tiny?
Can multiple mobs (Aka two characters with this) interact?
Could this be extended to further levels to get more goblins in the mob (6 goblins = CR 6/3= CR 2)?
This class would be almost too great for Battlefield control wizards, AoO abusers, and a couple others.
What happens to roleplaying when the character also has the flaw giving them multiple personalities ? Speaking of which, what happens with flaws like, say, blind? Are all three goblins blind?

Class is great, just has a couple minor problems like that. Just needs a tiny toning down, and a few clarifications, in my opinion.

I get the picture, believe me. I anticipated that problems along those lines would come up, but like I said in the comments, there's so many bases to cover I couldn't do it alone, so I was hoping for collaborative input on stuff like that. Thanks for starting to help hammer down the issues.

Regardless of the issues, though, I really do think it would be scads of fun to play in a party.

[flabort]

No arguments there.
While they may end up as comic relief, they will be so much fun to play . I really want to play one (once the issues are fixed).

edit: also, some other issues that occured.
Special mount/familiar/animal companion. Do the goblins get 1 each or share one (I'd imagine share, but that brings up extra issues with paladin)
You've gone into length about actions/round already, but what about charge actions? I'd assume from Spacing they'd move in unison, but clarification would be helpful.
You clarified much of full attacks already, but what about if they have additional natural attacks? Is only one goblin able to use any given natural attack at a time? What if they gain a breath weapon (such as from half-dragon)?
Cure <X> wounds, plus helpless goblins. If it doesn't bring the total up enough to un-helpless him, but it was cast on a helpless goblin, does the group gain hp, but the goblin remain helpless?
Food. Do they have to eat 3x as much? It's unstated.
"I turn around" wouldn't apply to the whole group, I take it. But, if using the Facing rule, how does that work with the group of goblins?

[Kobold-Bard]

It's difficult to say how much I love the Goblins idea. I too request Kobolds.

[Hyudra]

It's difficult to say how much I love the Goblins idea.

Having trouble interpreting that. Is that to say you really do love it, or you're of mixed feelings?

Presenting three times the target may be VERY bad for area spells, such as fireballs, and divination magic could be quite screwy.

When in doubt, just treat them as an individual, or focus on the leader of the group.

Also, what happens when they gain/lose size categories?
If, for example, I want to take a class that increases the size category to medium, I'd not imagine too much change. But if it then gives a second increase, to large, what happens? What If a class shrinks me down to tiny?

That, I'd need to add some text to explain, probably under the 'space' section. I imagine you'd end up with pretty huge area coverage.

Can multiple mobs (Aka two characters with this) interact?

I'd say no.

Could this be extended to further levels to get more goblins in the mob (6 goblins = CR 6/3= CR 2)?

Possible to extend the size of the group, maybe as a homebrew prestige class, but not in the fashion you describe.

This class would be almost too great for Battlefield control wizards, AoO abusers, and a couple others.

Battlefield control wizards, don't see how, really, and that's tempered by the one level of getting no spell advancement. AoO abusers, I can see.

What happens to roleplaying when the character also has the flaw giving them multiple personalities ? Speaking of which, what happens with flaws like, say, blind? Are all three goblins blind?

I imagine they'd all get the flaw in such a case. DMs, for the sake of sanity, probably wouldn't allow the former (since, for all intents and purposes, you've already got it) and would shy away from the latter.

Special mount/familiar/animal companion. Do the goblins get 1 each or share one (I'd imagine share, but that brings up extra issues with paladin)

What extra issues with paladin?

In any event, yeah, you'd probably share.

You've gone into length about actions/round already, but what about charge actions? I'd assume from Spacing they'd move in unison, but clarification would be helpful.

I'll clarify. Yes, you'd move in unison.

You clarified much of full attacks already, but what about if they have additional natural attacks? Is only one goblin able to use any given natural attack at a time?

Only one goblin would be able to use a given natural attack at a time.

What if they gain a breath weapon (such as from half-dragon)?

Then only one would be able to use it at a time.

Cure <X> wounds, plus helpless goblins. If it doesn't bring the total up enough to un-helpless him, but it was cast on a helpless goblin, does the group gain hp, but the goblin remain helpless?

Maybe. I might just put in text that has the helpless goblin be revived as the other goblin(s) jostled it to consciousness.

Food. Do they have to eat 3x as much? It's unstated.

I might just say yes.

"I turn around" wouldn't apply to the whole group, I take it. But, if using the Facing rule, how does that work with the group of goblins?

I've never used facing rules, so I'm not sure whether I'd venture to make a ruling. I'd have to look it up anyways.

All good questions.

[DiBastet]

I can't begin to imagine the problems with this...

So, I'll add them in the next game session in the place of the shifter bandits the group would face. If players ask I'll tell it's some kind of "goblin paragon class". I'll give them some levels and see how people react and what arises.

It won't be much, but it will be better than nothing.

Edit: This reminds me of Overlord.

[Kobold-Bard]

Having trouble interpreting that. Is that to say you really do love it, or you're of mixed feelings?

...

I do indeed love the idea (Now for a PrC that adds another Goblin each level...)

[Hyudra]

Actual game feedback is always appreciated and interesting to have.

As far as inspirations go, I think I drew a lot from Warhammer, Magicka, D&D flavor and yeah, maybe I subconsciously drew from Overlord too.

Well, it's certainly provoked a good few posts in a short span of time. Glad you like it, Kobold-Bard.

[Gorgondantess]

So. Goblins.
...First of all, I honestly think that this would be better off in the homebrew thread under something like "gremlins". Just sayin'. I mean, it's less of a "goblin monster class" and more of, well, "experimental critter #2".
Second of all... looks mechanically sound, for the most part, but it's definitely abusable. I honestly can't think of anything, but creative abuse really isn't my forte, so I'll just say it's abusable. Looks cool, though.

[Hazzardevil]

After reading Death Knight and another undead class I have a question, it says that if you get affected by raise dead do you lose all your death knight levels?

[Gorgondantess]

After reading Death Knight and another undead class I have a question, it says that if you get affected by raise dead do you lose all your death knight levels?

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell

It's an undead creature, so no, it wouldn't.

[Hazzardevil]

Not affected by Raise Dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and True Resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

but thats what it says there in death knight. Is this an error or something? Since DeathKnight is turns somethign into an udead.

[flabort]

Battlefield control wizards, don't see how, really, and that's tempered by the one level of getting no spell advancement. AoO abusers, I can see.

Alright, you may be right about BCWs, but I thought that, well, they'd have an easier time dealing with their own effects, and being able to cast them from three places (although not at once) would be neato.

Also, speaking of those effects, dealing with moving as a group and terrain that slows movement. That's another minor issue.

What extra issues with paladin?

In any event, yeah, you'd probably share.

Can all three ride the same mount at one time?
"My horsy!"
"No, you rode it last time. It's mine!"

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Can all three ride the same mount at one time?
"My horsy!"
"No, you rode it last time. It's mine!"

One in a saddle, one on it's head, one clinging comically to it's tail as it rides along.

[Gorgondantess]

One in a saddle, one on it's head, one clinging comically to it's tail as it rides along.

OBVIOUSLY.

Not affected by Raise Dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and True Resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

but thats what it says there in death knight. Is this an error or something? Since DeathKnight is turns somethign into an udead.

Undying Body:Unlike other monster classes, the Death knight doesn't lose his racial ability modifiers, but he does gain undead traits:

The Death Knight is exactly the same as any other undead creature on this site.

[Hyudra]

So. Goblins.
...First of all, I honestly think that this would be better off in the homebrew thread under something like "gremlins". Just sayin'. I mean, it's less of a "goblin monster class" and more of, well, "experimental critter #2".

Killjoy.

I dunno. I think it's fitting enough as a 'goblin monster class'. I think we can afford to be pretty flexible here, anyways, because it's a CR 1/3 monster anyways, and there's a valid, no-LA race one can take up if they find it problematic.

Second of all... looks mechanically sound, for the most part, but it's definitely abusable. I honestly can't think of anything, but creative abuse really isn't my forte, so I'll just say it's abusable. Looks cool, though.

Well, it probably is abusable somehow, but I think we can get the worst of the kinks worked out.

If there's a strong voice of agreement on the fact that the Goblins don't fit here & should go in the homebrew project, I'll concede the point, but I'll leave it where it is for now.

[Crafty Cultist]

I'm considering updating half fiend and celestial so that you gain an ability of your choice at certain levels, just like hyudra did for the monstrous spider, probably with a level prerequisite so that powerful abilities can't be chosen early on. Thoughts?

[Gorgondantess]

because it's a CR 1/3 monster anyways, and there's a valid, no-LA race one can take up if they find it problematic.

And that's why it belongs in the homebrew forums.
First of all, you have 3 times as many levels as the monster's CR, which is just a no-no.
Second of all, there's a perfectly good goblin race. No LA, no nothing. What's the goal of this project? To allow people to play races that would be abysmal otherwise due to high LA/RHD. You're giving a race a level here that it wouldn't have otherwise.
I'm not saying it's a bad class- I'm just saying it's out of the scope of this project.

I'm considering updating half fiend and celestial so that you gain an ability of your choice at certain levels, just like hyudra did for the monstrous spider, probably with a level prerequisite so that powerful abilities can't be chosen early on. Thoughts?

Problem with this is you'd have people waiting until later on to take the half-celesital/fiend in order to get the more powerful abilities. Generally not a good idea- just have them scale by HD.

[Hyudra]

And that's why it belongs in the homebrew forums.
First of all, you have 3 times as many levels as the monster's CR, which is just a no-no.

Nah, same number, just rounding up because rounding down isn't an option. ;)

Problem with this is you'd have people waiting until later on to take the half-celesital/fiend in order to get the more powerful abilities. Generally not a good idea- just have them scale by HD.

Pretty much this. The only abilities that should be so powerful as to be problematic at a certain level are the core, unavoidable abilities that tend to break the game at low levels (like flight or burrowing at levels 1-3).

[flabort]

I'm of the opinion that the class should stay here, agreeing with hyudra, but I can see where Gorgon's coming from on the issue.

Also, I found another issue with this:
While they must stay within 5 feet, that may potentially still allow them to be at diagonals, since the first diagonal counts as 5, then the next counts as 10, when moving.
It may actually be a "feature" instead of a "problem" , but set them in a "V" shape, so that a creature can stand surrounded by them on three adjacent sides, and then give them rogue levels. They can flank, without any help from other sources.

[Hazzardevil]

Not affected by Raise Dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and True Resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

but thats what it says there in death knight. Is this an error or something? Since DeathKnight is turns something into an undead.

[Hyudra]

Goblins Changes, February 25:

• Added basic needs, charges, animals/familiars/mounts sections under 'mob'. Clarified rules elsewhere, including size effects to answer questions raised in discussion in the thread (Thanks, Flabort!).

I didn't answer regarding facing, as it's a variant rule I've never seen in use. Comments welcome there, as to whether clarification is needed and what said clarification should be.

[DiBastet]

At this rate the goblin will be razed from this thread before I have chance to test it Sunday. My game is Sunday, so please. Don't. Raze. The. Goblins. Before.

Also, I know people have problems with time and their own creation, and I don't want to rush things, but I intend to make some more monsters and I'm just waiting to people to finish reviewing the Ragewalker before I get to make some more fey and Eladrin. So, you know, could any of the two of you, you know, actually look at it?

I'm starting to think it's too much job for two people. You should elect a third. You already slash each other's throats being two, it will be a bloodbath with three, but at least it will take a little less time (college starts again monday and I won't have nearly as much time as now to make more monsters...).