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Thread: 5' Drop? (3.5)
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2011-01-14, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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5' Drop? (3.5)
Every manuevarbility for flying lists downward movement as doubled. Does that mean you can effectively take a 10' step down as a free action (assuming you don't have a minimum forward movement to remain flying)?
Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2011-01-14 at 09:55 AM.
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2011-01-14, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop?
I would say no.
The 5 foot movement that is free to everyone is technically referred to as a shift, and is different from normal movement. No increase to speed affects these rules, so I can only move 5' in a shift regardless of whether my base speed was 5' or 180'.
Since it's not a function of your speed, your speed doesn't matter.
Note: I'm sure you can fall that far as a free action, but that movement would provoke attacks of opportunity.Last edited by Kuma Kode; 2011-01-14 at 09:55 AM.
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2011-01-14, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop?
I should probably have specified 3.5. Given your use of the word 'shift', I'm guessing you were thinking 4E.
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2011-01-14, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop?
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2011-01-14, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop?
I'm pretty sure falling down is a free action. IIRC, a stall (caused by lack of forward movement) would drop you down for free. You just need to make sure you get your flying back on, before you fall too far (ie, splat)
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2011-01-14, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-14, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
Originally Posted by SRD
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2011-01-14, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
However, if you did not actually stall (because no min. forward speed), maybe you could stop your wings for a second to drop down a little, before catching yourself from a short drop?
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2011-01-14, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
That's what I meant earlier. Depending on your maneuverability, you could drop that far as a free action, but such movement would NOT be considered that 5' shift and would provoke an attack of opportunity.
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2011-01-14, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
It's not a free action, but yes, you could drop 10' in place of your standard allowed 5' adjustment. By the same token you're prohibited by the rules from a 5' adjustment upward when that would cost double movement; you could only gain 2.5', which rounds down (as always) to prevent you from rising out of your square (cube). With good maneuverability you could hover and make a full ranged attack, then (instead of 5' up or down) you've got 5' or 10' down and no up adjustment.
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2011-01-14, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
Eh, I still don't say a 10' down adjustment is allowed. It is not affected by improvements to speed in any other way. Not even Colossal creatures can move farther than 5' with a 5-foot step. A dwarf with heavy armor and the Slow flaw with a base speed of 10' can take a 5' step, and the monk with a 180' base speed takes a 5' step max. Give either one haste, and the rules don't change. Expeditious retreat? Still limited to 5' without provoking AoOs. It is a special action that is not a function of your speed, and so your speed doesn't affect it; it follows its own rules.
Curmudgeon is correct in that regardless, you won't be able to take a 5 foot step UP since that is similar to the rules of difficult terrain and the 5 foot step's rules about being unable to take it if your speed is hampered in any way.
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2011-01-14, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
This position is inconsistent. It's not the character that is flying downward faster, but the environment that's causing the speedup ─ exactly as gravity (like difficult terrain) is causing the slowdown when flying upward. And just as it doesn't matter how fast you fly when you're unable to go upward 5' with half movement, it doesn't matter how fast you fly when you go downward twice as far (10') with double movement.
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2011-01-14, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
I'm with Curmudgeon on this one.
This gets into tricky places when you consider a Raptoran's glide, though.
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2011-01-14, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
Originally Posted by SRD
EDIT (Clarification): It does not say "all movement down is doubled," which would also include the 5-foot step. It specifically mentions a creature's flying speed, which is a mechanical term.
Rules of the Game mentions that a creature with Perfect or Good Maneuverability (no minimum forward speed) can take a 5-foot step. It does not state this is doubled in any case.
This gets into tricky places when you consider a Raptoran's glide, though.Last edited by Kuma Kode; 2011-01-14 at 01:44 PM.
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2011-01-14, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
I think you could do it. Since you can't 5' step in areas that halve your speed (difficult terrain), then it makes sense that double speed would have an effect.
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2011-01-14, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
That's hardly an argument. There are at least three other ways to move 10 foot with a 5 foot step.
Sparring Dummy of the Master, from Arms & Equipment Guide.
A DC 40 Tumble check, from Oriental Adventures.
Cyran Gliding Boots, from Clockwork Wonders.
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2011-01-14, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
And do these things specifically state they increase a 5-foot step, or do they all just increase movement speed?
I'm not saying that allowing a 10' step down is unrealistic, I'm saying the rules don't technically support it. If you want to, go for it. It's a corner case where the rules aren't terribly explicit.
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2011-01-14, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-14, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
This is exactly my point. Unless specifically stated otherwise, a 5-foot step is five feet. It is its own special action with particular rules. It's the specific vs. generic thing. General adjustments to movement do not modify the specifics of that particular action unless they specifically state otherwise. Downward speed is "doubled", but it does not specifically state that is also doubles 5' steps. Ergo, your 5' step is limited to five feet, even when moving down.
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2011-01-14, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
As I said earlier, your position is inconsistent.
You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.
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2011-01-14, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
You are incorrect. The exact wording is...
Originally Posted by PHB pg. 304
EDIT: If you happen to be away from your books, the D&D Glossary is available online.Last edited by Kuma Kode; 2011-01-14 at 03:01 PM.
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2011-01-14, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
Does rising the count as hampered movement? I don't think so, only that it costs 10 ft. to move 5. There's nothing in the way, just that you're not able to rise high enough. You can, however, fly downwards very fast, so to me it sounds reasonable to move 10' as a 5' step-move.
Every time I post a statement feel free to add 'In my opinion...' whenever applicable.
Avatar by Balford
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2011-01-14, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
I would say anything that says "moves at half speed" counts as hampered, since that's what blinded and difficult terrain both do. There's nothing "in the way" when you can't see, but it still counts.
I'm not saying allowing a 10' step down is unreasonable, I'm saying it would be Rule 0. The rules indicate otherwise. Since I figured Skjaldbakka was asking a rules question, I answered with the mechanics. If Skjaldbakka was asking for help with DM adjucation, that was unclear.
Mechanically speaking, the rules don't allow for a 10' step down, no.
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2011-01-14, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-14, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5' Drop? (3.5)
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying that those options do not allow a 10' 5-foot step. My point was that they had to specifically state they do so, indicating that other effects that do not specifically state so do not increase the distance of a 5' step. It's the specific vs. generic rule. A generic increase to speed does not increase the very specific 5' step. Abilities or items, like you mentioned, have to specifically state they override the 5' step's normal rules. Since flying down does not have that specificity, the specific rules regarding 5' steps apply.
I apologize that I had not made my original intent clear.Last edited by Kuma Kode; 2011-01-14 at 03:30 PM.
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2011-01-14, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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