A kobold question

[Kaww]

Kobolds are coldblooded creatures. Dragons are warmblooded. DRAGONWROUGHT Kobold is a warmblooded or a coldblooded creature? I'd hazard warmblooded, since their type is no longer reptilian. Still I'd like to know what the playground thinks about this.

Also by RAW are they supposed to be true dragons?

EDIT: Do you think they are supposed to be true dragons by RAI?

Is there a discussion about this somewhere on this forum? If so link, please.

[Greenish]

Kobolds are coldblooded creatures. Dragons are warmblooded. DRAGONWROUGHT Kobold is a warmblooded or a coldblooded creature? I'd hazard warmblooded, since their type is no longer reptilian. Still I'd like to know what the playground thinks about this.

I'd go with that, but I don't remember if it's explicitly stated anywhere.

Also by RAW are they supposed to be true dragons?

There are different schools of thought, and the question has resulted on several long threads of arguments, but for the purposes of running a game, the DM has to make the call, and many would probably disallow Sovereign Archetypes (the most often cited benefit) or epic feats.

Are they supposed to be true dragons by RAI?

None knows the minds of the writers (but the writers themselves, maybe), but the interpretation that I'm of favour is that yes, they're supposed to be true dragons, but people who came up with that hadn't a firm grasp on all of the aspects of being a true dragon.

[Kaww]

I'd go with that, but I don't remember if it's explicitly stated anywhere.

I think it's from RotD. Not 100% sure.

There are different schools of thought, and the question has resulted on several long threads of arguments, but for the purposes of running a game, the DM has to make the call, and many would probably disallow Sovereign Archetypes (the most often cited benefit) or epic feats.

I need it for "spellhoarding" template. On a non caster kobold. I just think it's cool having scales engraved with magical runes...

None knows the minds of the writers (but the writers themselves, maybe), but the interpretation that I'm of favour is that yes, they're supposed to be true dragons, but people who came up with that hadn't a firm grasp on all of the aspects of being a true dragon.

My bad choice of words. EDITED

[Greenish]

I need it for "spellhoarding" template. On a non caster kobold. I just think it's cool having scales engraved with magical runes...

I don't think Spellhoarding does anything on a non-caster.

[Kaww]

Draconic rite (I think that's the name) gives you a SLA and a caster lvl. Thus I may take the template. Right? It gives me scribe scroll, eschew materials, -4 wis, +2 int. Factotum allows me to inscribe them on my scales in downtime. Right?

[grimbold]

i think they are warmblooded because they sometimes live high on mountainsides and in cold regions where reptiles could not survive

[Bayar]

i think they are warmblooded because they sometimes live high on mountainsides and in cold regions where reptiles could not survive

They specifically say that kobolds are cold blooded in the RotD. But htey also say that they generate some internal heat from processing food. They also state that they have to increase their food intake dramatically in colder climates. Kobold sub-species in colder climates might have simply evolved to not need a significant food intake increase in colder climates.

I'd say that Dragonwrought kobolds become warm blooded due to their dragon blood (be it true dragon or not).

Now people are still arguing if that feat makes them true dragons, and from all the dragon definitions they qualify. The reason why some people refuse to accept that they are true dragons are: 1) easy epic feat aquisition at level 1 (or 3 without flaws) from being a great wyrm dragonwrought kobold, 2) the dragon age table in RotD being nothing other than fluff and thus kobolds wouldn't have age categories like true dragons, 3) they can take a Souvreign Archetype from Dragons of Eberron by simply being a true dragon, adding benefits without any real drawbacks (Loredrake gives you +2 sorcerer level casting while reducing your HD from D12 to D10), 4) They actually don't grow in power as they age since class levels should not be considered normal (or racial) power growth, 5) they do not get any innate sorcerer spellcasting while aging (although they have that rite of passage that grants any kobold a 1st level arcane spell 1/day), and other nit-pickings.

About the RAI, we cannot be sure. It says they become dragons, so it might go both ways (either only dragon, either true dragon). I think that whatever it might be, it mosst likely wasn't RAI to abuse early epic feat aquisition or souvreign archetype aquisition.

I personally consider Dragonwrought kobolds to be true dragons.

[KillianHawkeye]

They don't LOOK like True Dragons.

[Greenish]

They don't LOOK like True Dragons.

Nothing the good ol' Alter Self wouldn't fix.

[mootoall]

Honestly I would not rule that they become true dragons. It really opens it up to a lot of borked options. I'd give them the dragon subtype, but that's about it, and even that's doubtful because of Alter Self shenanegans.

[Greenish]

Honestly I would not rule that they become true dragons. It really opens it up to a lot of borked options. I'd give them the dragon subtype, but that's about it, and even that's doubtful because of Alter Self shenanegans.

Dragon is not a subtype. Dragon bows for no one!

And well, Alter Self shenanigans are more about Alter Self being borked.

[Edit]: Wait, if Dragonwrought kobolds didn't get Dragon type, what would be the point of the feat?

[Bayar]

They don't LOOK like True Dragons.

Really ?

Hmm...

Spoiler

Show

Mmm...

Spoiler

Show

Yup, don't look nothing like one another. [/sarcasm]

Now really, that's like saying elves don't look like raptorans because they don't have wings.

[Benly]

Now people are still arguing if that feat makes them true dragons, and from all the dragon definitions they qualify.

Whether or not they qualify is arguable, as witnessed by people still arguing over it. The claim that dragonwrought kobolds meet the "gain power as they age" requirement due to their mental stat increases ignores that every confirmed true dragon actually gains HD as it ages.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Now really, that's like saying elves don't look like raptorans because they don't have wings.

What's this about Elves not having wings?

[Bayar]

What's this about Elves not having wings?

[IMG]http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49730.jpg[IMG]

Well, that was the point. Kobolds don't normally have wings. Elves don't normally have wings. That doesn't mean they dont look like their racial relatives.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just because they look vaguely similar doesn't mean that they look ALIKE (for certain degrees of alikeness).

In other words, they're not alike enough for me to say one looks like the other.

[JeminiZero]

If I recall my fluff correctly, true Dragons aren't actually warmblooded. More of Coldblooded with powerful elemental influence. In other words, their bodies do not generate heat per se, but they carry an organ that generates their breath weapon, and which influences the temperature of the rest of their body.

I.e. White and Silver Dragons (ice) have freezing body temps, Green and Copper (acid) are around room temp (since acid is neither hot nor cold), Bronze and Blue (electricity) are slightly above, whereas Red and Gold (fire) are absolutely blazing.

Or maybe I dreamt all that up. Who knows?

[Bayar]

If I recall my fluff correctly, true Dragons aren't actually warmblooded. More of Coldblooded with powerful elemental influence. In other words, their bodies do not generate heat per se, but they carry an organ that generates their breath weapon, and which influences the temperature of the rest of their body.

I.e. White and Silver Dragons (ice) have freezing body temps, Green and Copper (acid) are around room temp (since acid is neither hot nor cold), Bronze and Blue (electricity) are slightly above, whereas Red and Gold (fire) are absolutely blazing.

Or maybe I dreamt all that up. Who knows?

Draconomicon agrees with you. Fire based dragons literary get hotter as they age, cold based ones become colder, and acid and electric ones preety much stay constant. It also states that dragons are endothermic but not warm blooded. And they can be ectotermic, using external heat to get hotter (or store it in their special organ) but do not need it since the internal heat is enough to survive without hibernating or changing their metabolism.

I should read the Draconomicon more often

[super dark33]

DRAGONWROUGHT Kobold is a warmblooded or a coldblooded creature?

they are lukewarm blooded

[Kaww]

If I recall my fluff correctly, true Dragons aren't actually warmblooded. More of Coldblooded with powerful elemental influence. In other words, their bodies do not generate heat per se, but they carry an organ that generates their breath weapon, and which influences the temperature of the rest of their body.

I.e. White and Silver Dragons (ice) have freezing body temps, Green and Copper (acid) are around room temp (since acid is neither hot nor cold), Bronze and Blue (electricity) are slightly above, whereas Red and Gold (fire) are absolutely blazing.

Or maybe I dreamt all that up. Who knows?

And RotD pg 39 disagrees with you. I actually got my lazy ass up and checked it now... And Draconcomicon pg 9 says that this is silly. Does this mean that the book's are contradictory?!?

[Yuki Akuma]

Dragons are exothermic. It's just that some of them have elemental energy coursing through their veins that heats up their blood. (Taken from Draconomicon).

There is no problem here.

[MeeposFire]

And RotD pg 39 disagrees with you. I actually got my lazy ass up and checked it now... And Draconcomicon pg 9 says that this is silly. Does this mean that the book's are contradictory?!?

Contradictions in the myriad of books in 3.5? Surely you jest!

[Waker]

I've never really researched the whole debate about whether or not a Dragonwrought Kobold is a True Dragon, but here is my contribution to it.
According to pg 4 of the Draconomicon under "Different Kinds of Dragons" it reads and I quote

A number of other true dragons are described in Chapter 4 of this book. In addition, Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in official sources.

Draconomicon, pg 287 True Dragons
Amethyst, Battle, Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, Brown, Chiang Lung, Chaos, Copper, Crystal, Deep, Emerald, Ethereal, Fang, Force, Gold, Green, Howling, Li Lung, Lung Wang, Oceanus, Pan Lung, Prismatic, Pyroclastic, Radiant, Red, Rust, Sapphire, Shen Lung, Shadow, Silver, Song, Styx, Tarterian, T'ien Lung, Topaz, Tun Mi Lung, White, Yu Lung.

One could try and argue that according to the line in the feat Dragonwrought

Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage.

but by that same rational you could say that any half-dragon is a True Dragon.

As for qualifying for an epic feat, I think you need to actually be of epic level.

ACQUIRING EPIC FEATS
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

[FMArthur]

RotD was printed after the Draconomicon. The Draconomicon presenting a list of dragons that have been presented in the past doesn't contradict one appearing in the future at all.

And on page 66 the Draconomicon unfortunately gave all dragons of at least Old age the ability to take epic feats.

[JaronK]

There was a huge recent debate on this. RAI actually looks clear... the writers of Races of the Dragon wanted Kobolds to be extremely close kin to True Dragons, going on to actually state that Kobolds were made of nothing but the droplets of blood coming from the first True Dragons. Furthermore, they gave Kobolds the 12 age categories found only in True Dragons, and even then went on to say that Dragonwrought Kobolds didn't take penalties for aging (thus giving them the necessarily Draconomicon qualifiers). All this in a book that gave Kobolds a feat to make them dragons. Really, it looks very much like it's intended. What certainly wasn't intended was for DKs to use Sovereign Archetypes, which are a variant rule anyway.

Also, check out Dragon Magic, page 85 or so (the Dragonpacts entry) which actually just gives a straight definition of True Dragon: a dragon with 12 age categories. Which Kobolds have, along with all the rest of the True Dragons (but nothing else does). This combines nicely with the Draconomicon definition, which puts True Dragons as any dragon that gets more powerful as it gets older (Kobolds get a +3 to all mental stats as they get older with no penalties, while all PC playable lesser dragons take physical penalties. If you check the DMG section on point buy and dice rolling for stats, it explicitly states that higher stats count as being more powerful).

You can go through the debates on Brilliant Gameologists for the full thing, but as written, I'd say yes they count by RAW, yes they count by RAI, but no they were never intended to get Sovereign Archetypes. Remember that when Races of the Dragon was written, being a True Dragon had almost no meaning within the rules... it was just something cool for Kobolds to have so they could puff out their chests and feel important because they were dragons (something the fluff in that book says they do anyway). It wasn't until much later that it really mattered a lot. As a DM, just do what fits your game.

JaronK