Practical Mage Slaying

[Angry Bob]

Just as a thought experiment, I want to build a character that can reliably kill full casters. It doesn't even have to be good at anything else. I just want to see how well it can be done.

As a brainstorm, mainly, but hopefully eventually a guide to making any given archetype viable as something that can get up in a caster's business and mess him up.

Caster vulnerabilities:

Low health(until access to polymorph/shapechange/wtf ever)
Vulnerable to grappling if freedom of movement isn't already up(FoM has a somatic component, oddly enough.)
<Crickets>
...
There's really not a lot to capitalize on here, and even the ones I listed are sort of tenuous at best.

Stuff that's actually a good idea to bring to a mage fight:
A Mind Blank effect
A Nondetection effect, if Mind Blank isn't available. And this only works if you know you're going to be up against Batman.
Something that Dispels magic. Like Dispel Magic
...
So, basically, the answer to full casters is more full casters.

Is there anything that's not a spell that actually works?

Feats:
Pierce Magical Protection/Pierce Magical Concealment
Okay, that works, if you get get into melee range with them.

tl;dr: How do you build a character specifically to pwn casters? If anyone has done this before, what would you do differently if you built yours again? What feats, classes, etc are worth pointing out?

EDIT: When you post an idea, have an idea what it's qualified to take on. Almost nothing can match a fully theoretically-optimized wizard or archivist 20, but more "tame" builds are what I'd like to look at. I've never seen a wizard 20 or a character with wizard 20 casting in action, only seen the numbers, but give an idea of what your suggestion or combination of suggestions should be able to take on.

Additions:
UMD(for antimagic effects)
Don't let them know you're there.
Staggering Strike. Keep in mind this limits them to a standard action, which is still all they need to melt you.
Psionic Mind Blank, Personal
Scroll of metamagiked Enervation. Keep in mind protection from negative levels/negative energy is popular.
Win initiative, close quickly, try to one-shot them, use Mage Slayer and Thicket of Blades to lock them down if they live. Keep in mind they could have quickened escape spells ready.
Wall of Blades against touch attack spells.
Have lots of health to protect against power word spells.
High saves. Try to get as cost-effective as you can.
Moment of Perfect Mind and its relatives. Less useful if they spam the same spell at you until you fail a save.
Cha to saves(Find ways to stack a few different sources of this)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

a well decked out UMD Rogue with proper preparation, can in theory defeat a caster with the element of surprise, and the happy use of sneak attack.

You just end up spending a lot of money on scrolls and wands, on top of the more usual equipment for such a character.

However, if you do not kill the caster in that first round, you are probably screwed, what with your roguishly low FORT and WILL saves. You can bet they wont throw a Fireball at you for sticking a sword of subtlety in their back.

[tyckspoon]

Well, you pretty much have to start by stating the level of optimization you're trying to beat. There is no practical way you'll take down an Astral Projection of the dude with Persistent Foresight, Celerity, and 20 carefully crafted Contingencies. But that doesn't represent all full casters, and it doesn't even represent all Wizards; it's quite possible to give a reaaallly bad day to any magic-user that gets next to you, where 'next to you' is 'anywhere in a 40 foot radius' via reach optimization.

[Xiander]

I build a fighter 8/monk 2, who could reliably take out any arcane caster the GM in question sigged at me. The clincher was that the gm was making generic npc mages and i had build a very specific anti mage fighter. The plot did not last long, but i would have loved to see him try his hand against actually optimised magi.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

pretty much the only way to beat casters (almost reliably and at ANY level) without being a true caster yourself is Use Magic Device.

I believe in one of the Fighter vs. Wizard challenge/experiments, all the fighters died horrible deaths... except the one who bought ranks in UMD (even though it was cross class)

It sucks, but its true. damage is nothing if you dont have a method to counter magic. thus, you must be a magic user, or be able to Use Magic Device with as little chance of failure as possible.

[JeminiZero]

Vulnerable to grappling if freedom of movement isn't already up(FoM has a somatic component, oddly enough.)

At low levels (5+), an optimized Caster would have Heart of Water active: 3rd level, trigger as a mental swift action to grant FoM for CL/round. At high levels, he could be wearing a ring. Plus if he's a Conjurer expect him to abrupt jaunt.

[Zaq]

Just about the only way to reliably kill a full caster is to get the drop on them, which you can only do if they're not turning the optimization up past a certain point (Contact Other Plane programs, chilling as a Dire Tortoise, anything with "Contingency" in the name, whatever). Get 'em flat-footed so they can't use immediate actions, hit 'em with both barrels, and pray. If the caster can actually take actions against you, there's a very good chance that you're simply boned, and the best that you can hope to do is distract them long enough for your friends to do something. (At least, this is the case if you're dealing with casters who are powerful enough to be worth specifically building against.)

One thing to keep in mind is that if you can actually land a solid physical blow on the mage, you've probably won. As such, things that do antimagey things on a hit tend to be not very useful. The example I always come back to is a Duskblade channeling Dispelling Touch: yes, if you hit, the mage might lose his or her buffs, but if the mage has the kinds of buffs up that would have protected them from dying anyway, you probably couldn't hit them in the first place.

At the lower levels of optimization, the mage might get a turn to go without either of you actually dying, so defenses and no-buttons become more important. Exactly what kind of defenses you need depends on the kind of mages you're up against, of course.

Overall, though, I would say that an overwhelming alpha strike is likely to be your best bet against the casters that you can actually kill.

[Acero]

For melee magekillers

My main idea is get in close. Short distance teleporting, fast movement, high jump, whatever works for you. Once you're in his/her/its face, be relentless.

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.
Low con= Low Fort save- Abuse this (Stunning moves are nice)


Other non-spell ways:

Shoot/ cut off hands- no more somatic spells
Get someone to distract the while you advance (Posidon costume optional)
Grapple
Use a Tanglefoot Bag
Hit them with a big stick

[Zaq]

For melee magekillers

My main idea is get in close. Short distance teleporting, fast movement, high jump, whatever works for you. Once you're in his/her/its face, be relentless.

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.
Low con= Low Fort save- Abuse this (Stunning moves are nice)


Other non-spell ways:

Shoot/ cut off hands- no more somatic spells
Get someone to distract the while you advance (Posidon costume optional)
Grapple
Use a Tanglefoot Bag
Hit them with a big stick

Casters will usually have as much CON as melee types do, often even more. Most casters only need one stat (some need two), and then they're free to max out CON. Why wouldn't they?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If you go the rogue route (which I enjoy) look at Staggering Strike feat... (complete scoundrel? maybe complete adventurer?) whenever a rogue hits with a melee sneak attack, the target makes a FORT saving throw against DAMAGE dealt. If the target fails the save, the target is staggered and can only make standard actions.

caster FORT saves generally suck.

[Angry Bob]

Staggering Strike sounds like an addition, with the caveat that a standard action is all a caster needs to melt you.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Very true, but better than the caster getting a full round on you. Its something, I guess.

and as I stated before, I favor UMD as a non-caster method of standing up to wizards and their ilk. I really do feel it is the best way.

[The Shadowmind]

I'd say a 4 person team of a Factotum 20, PsiWar 20, Beguiler 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Mystic Theurge 6, Spell-thief 20, has a decent chance of taking down a reasonably optimized Tier 1-2 level 20 Full caster.

Though you never mentioned which type of full caster. so being able to take down a Healer or a Warmage would meet the requirements of the the challenge and be quite easy.

[Angry Bob]

True. I'll add something to the first post about what any given countermeasure is qualified to take on.

[Essence_of_War]

It is very hard, and as other people mentioned depends largely on your optimization level.

The mage-slayer feat line isn't a bad starting point.

A couple of thingsto keep in mind:

1. Casters at high optimization like contingencies. At all optimizations they like all day buffs. Maximize spell/power or Sudden Maximize + dispel effect. This can level the playing field if you surprise them.

2. Casters (esp wizards) need to scry or CoP etc to prep adequately for threats. Someway to negate detection/scrying. The slayer's 9th level ability comes to mind. A mind blank spell/scroll/casting friend. I think psions/wilders get personal mind blank for 5th level powers.

3. Someway to one-hit kill so that they don't get actions to drop a twinned, maximized orb on you to end your sillyness. Failing that, someway to lock them out. A quickened sudden maximized dispel to eliminate contingencies followed by an uber-charge could work effectively. Tripping with a spiked chain with the knight's bulwark of defense class feature, and the mage-slayer line could work effectively.

All of this assumes that they aren't just an astral projection.

The problem, of course, is loading all of these into one character.

Alternatively, be a caster yourself

[Angry Bob]

We've conceded that the best solution for one full caster is another full caster. The goal hear is to see what other archetypes can do against them, and see just how strong the caster can get before even any given character optimized to kill casters can't stop them.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

ooh, just remembered one of my favorite anti caster tricks... again, UMD. (im getting predictable, arent I?)

a Scroll of Maximized Enervation costs 1650+ whatever material components. they are no longer a level whatever caster, there is no saving throw, it is a ranged touch attack. There are now four levels lower than they were when you met them.

Throw Empowered on there for good measure. now they are effectively six levels lower.

[tyckspoon]

ooh, just remembered one of my favorite anti caster tricks... again, UMD. (im getting predictable, arent I?)

a Scroll of Maximized Enervation costs 1650+ whatever material components. they are no longer a level whatever caster, there is no saving throw, it is a ranged touch attack. There are now four levels lower than they were when you met them.

Throw Empowered on there for good measure. now they are effectively six levels lower.

On the other hand, negative energy and level drain protections are both pretty easy to get and very common to have, precisely because negative levels suck so hard.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

All you say is true. however, Ive noticed in "PvP" players tend to forget that bit, when they know they are going against a martial character... a martial character who shows up to the arena with a minimum of 7 wands, and god knows how many scrolls strapped to them.

Then they realize their mistake(s).

I do admit, the enervation trick is only good against lower level casters, very true, I cede that point, oh Spoon of Tyck.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Generally speaking, a significant advantage in optimization is both necessary and sufficient for a non-full-caster to defeat a full caster. This means that casters optimized near the limits of their power require game-breaking shenanigans (anyone with appropriate WBL can buy a Candle of Invocation) to defeat, but many of the tricks stated above will work on 'standard' casters, and simply picking up a big stick and winning initiative will work against horribly unoptimized casters.

This thread also reminds me why every Incantatrix I'll ever play will persist Ray Deflection, even if I don't use Metamagic Effect on any other spell.

[Ranger Mattos]

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.

1. Be a 17th level martial initiator.
2. Take Mountain Tombstone Strike.
3. Hit the caster. Repeatedly.
4. ???
5. Profit!

[The Shadowmind]

The 4 person team of Factotum 20, PsiWar 20, Beguiler 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Mystic Theurge 6(using early entry trick), Spell-thief 20, which will hence fourth be known as the Shade 4.

Spoiler

Show

The PsiWar, will get a custom Weapon of Legacy, to gain up to 6 first level Maneuvers(Least abilities), for 1 of the Lesser abilities for the Cunning abilities to make sure he is never flat-footed. This will ensure that the PsiWar can take immediate actions almost always. The other lesser abilities could be the +5 initiative, making the Weapon of Legacy Intelligent, and/or getting a few 3rd level maneuvers. Also use Marital Study/Stance to get White Raven tactics for the PsiWar.

With proper warning and setup the Noctumancer can make himself temporarily immune to the specific spells the Caster might try. Along with immediate action counter-spelling.

The Spell-thief can use the steal SLA ability grab SLA's from the Factotum to cast, and can has a good chance to "Return to Sender" any targeted spells that target him.

The Factotum once he gets to go, after the PsiWar uses the psionic tricks to go first, then white raven tactics to make the it the Factotum's turn, can use the whichever abilities from Cunning Brilliance(Pick from a few Contact Other Plane questionsings), and then Cunning Surge to use inspiration points from Font of Inspirations to have several standard actions. The Factotum should have enough skill points to UMD anything scroll/staff/item that he needs to just in case.

And all four can pick several spells as contingencies from bought from someone with Craft Contingency spell.

[faceroll]

At low levels (5+), an optimized Caster would have Heart of Water active: 3rd level, trigger as a mental swift action to grant FoM for CL/round. At high levels, he could be wearing a ring. Plus if he's a Conjurer expect him to abrupt jaunt.

Do you really want to be devoting a 3rd level slot to that? Aren't there better options? Benign transposition or something with only a verbal component to get you out? Mirror image to keep from being touched in the first place?

[tyckspoon]

Do you really want to be devoting a 3rd level slot to that? Aren't there better options? Benign transposition or something with only a verbal component to get you out? Mirror image to keep from being touched in the first place?

The Heart of (Element) spells last an hour/level, grant a modest benefit while on, can be discharged for a more potent defense, and give you crit/sneak attack fortification if you have all of them running. So.. no, there's really not a significantly better defensive spell- all the more potent ones are short enough duration that you have to cast them during the fight, which means you are using your actions to establish defense instead of taking control of the fight.

[BayardSPSR]

Doesn't the Giant have a post somewhere on how Miko managed to take out a full party (including V)? I don't know whether V's optimized or not, but maybe similar tactics could work.


Maybe.

[RndmNumGen]

V is very unoptimized.

One thing that occurred to me though, is while most casters might have a decent Con score, they probably have a low Str(Unless they're a Cleric). If you can reliably get off several attacks, something like Dragon Bile could reduce their Str to 0, rendering them helpless. Hmm... that doesn't stop them from using verbal spells though. Maybe a Cha, Wis or Int equivalent, using whichever one seems least likely for that caster to have a high score in?

[sonofzeal]

V is very unoptimized.

One thing that occurred to me though, is while most casters might have a decent Con score, they probably have a low Str(Unless they're a Cleric). If you can reliably get off several attacks, something like Dragon Bile could reduce their Str to 0, rendering them helpless. Hmm... that doesn't stop them from using verbal spells though. Maybe a Cha, Wis or Int equivalent, using whichever one seems least likely for that caster to have a high score in?

If you can get off several hits, there's better things you can do. Like, kill them outright via damage.

[faceroll]

The Heart of (Element) spells last an hour/level, grant a modest benefit while on, can be discharged for a more potent defense, and give you crit/sneak attack fortification if you have all of them running. So.. no, there's really not a significantly better defensive spell- all the more potent ones are short enough duration that you have to cast them during the fight, which means you are using your actions to establish defense instead of taking control of the fight.

A 5th level wizard doesn't have that many 3rd level spell slots. A generalist has 2 3rd level spells (3 if you get domain wizard), specialist/elf generalist has 3 3rd level spells, and focused specialist has 4 3rd level spells. A 6th level sorcerer has 1 3rd level spell known. I can see a specialist or focused specialist preparing it as soon as he gets access to 3rd level spells. For a generalist, probably not until level 6 or 7 would I regularly prepare it.

Do you go offense or defense? Personally, I like filling my top spells with offense before I pick up defense, and use war wizard (swap scribe scroll for improved initiative) and nerveskitter to get +10 or so to initiative. Then I try and end combat with my big guns, or run away.

[Cerlis]

seems to me all this is considering that the non caster will auto fail his save and die.

A caster kills you with saves effects and touch attacks. So the simple solution is to find away to not make this a problem.

I'm sure with some meddling a Rogue/hexblade fighter with mageslayer feats a Ring of Spell turning (or whatever its called) a scarab of death, throat punch, and various libraries of other magic items that can help.

Spells are great, but if we are talking about low level magic then a low level melee character can figure out plenty of ways to deal with it, and if we are talking high level game breaking magic then thats enough money, magic items and a good 10 levels in main class and 5 levels in two other classes to pick up supernatural and extrodinary abilities to help you do this.

Surely there should be something.

-------
also i'd be wary, whenever someone suggests one thing someone says "there's a spell for that" . But even if you have alot of game breaking spells that no single caster has all spells availible to them all the time.

All we need is a way to keep from failing saves on the most potential spells, reduce damage on the middle tier spells and catch up or prevent escape.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

You are right, no caster has all spells available to them at all times... unless they arent a caster, and Use Magic Device to imitate any caster they want, whenever they want, for the mere price of entirely replaceable gold pieces.