ToB in the early levels (1-5)

[RndmNumGen]

I've always liked the idea of the ToB classes, though I've never actually played one. I was talking with a friend about them today who also hadn't played with ToB, and found myself lacking any description of them other than 'melee, but better'. Now I know that at high levels any full casting class will easily outpace them, but what about lower levels? How do they play when wizards are still weak, and the martial abilities of fighters and barbarians shine? Are they reasonably balanced, or are they a head above everyone else? Assume a low-medium level of optimization.

[Private-Prinny]

Low-level Tome of Battle characters are what make some DMs ban the book as a knee-jerk reaction. Generally speaking, the out-of-the-box abilities at those low levels make the ToB characters look much stronger in comparison.

Think about it this way: Before level 6, melee characters only get one attack on their turn, because they can't full attack yet. A Barbarian can rage (minor boost to damage), a Paladin can Smite (1/day), and a Fighter gets 3 extra feats to play with. Meanwhile, ToB characters get up to 3rd level maneuvers and stances. Crusader's Strike (and later Revitalizing Strike) make the Crusader a prime tank. Within the first 3 maneuver levels, saves can be replaced with Diamond Mind counters. Mountain Hammer lets you bypass DR and hardness. Swordsages get access to short range teleportation and invisibility. Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics exist.

The gap shortens once full attacks and WBL set in, and they still don't come close to how broken spellcasters can be, but in the range of 1-5, a martial adept is pretty terrifying if played correctly.

[MeeposFire]

I remember a thread long ago that compared a barbarian and a warblade. It showed how similar in power they were if the barb could get full attacks. It also showed that at certain levels the warblade would start pulling ahead but then the barb would get an additional attack and the whole thing started over again.

[HunterOfJello]

ToB classes will be pretty far ahead of casters until around level 6. After that, the ToB classes will be able to keep up for their party roles, but won't maintain the ridiculous versatility that all Tier 1 classes can achieve. The ToB classes are also good at not stepping on spellcaster's toes. A Warblade will make a Fighter feel lousy and subpar, but the wizard will love having a Warblade or Crusader tanking for him or a Swordsage scouting and being an awesome ninja.



Also, many classes at level 20 will be useless or redundant in a level 20 part with a wizard. A Swordsage, Warblade, or Crusader will still be highly useful and able to contribute in that same party.

[Runestar]

Low-level Tome of Battle characters are what make some DMs ban the book as a knee-jerk reaction. Generally speaking, the out-of-the-box abilities at those low levels make the ToB characters look much stronger in comparison.

Says the guy not playing a whirling frenzy barb with pounce...2 attacks at 1st lv on a pounce.

[Benly]

Says the guy not playing a whirling frenzy barb with pounce...2 attacks at 1st lv on a pounce.

You can tweak a non-ToB character to outperform a ToB character, but you're pretty much pushing the limits of the low-level barbarian to try to outperform a standard-issue, not-very-optimized martial adept.

[Fouredged Sword]

Swordsage and Warblade can both do that as well, and some other stuff, without having to charge. That is a tiger strike that works well at lower levels. The barbarian can only do so once per day, the warblade can do it every other round.

[Runestar]

The barbarian can only do so once per day, the warblade can do it every other round.

What barb doesn't take extra rage at 1st lv?

This example has actually been used to demonstrate that a warblade is far from overpowered, as it actually loses to fighter and barb in terms of damage output (though it more than compensates with consistency and versatility).

The warblade does have its breakpoints where it can seem unusually strong. For example, at 5th lv, my warblade can do 7d6+1.5str damage on a hit (greatsword, bonecrushor in punishing stance). The only way a fighter can match this is with haste.

So yeah, martial adepts will have moments where they shine, but you should find that they will not dominate all the time.

[Eldariel]

What barb doesn't take extra rage at 1st lv?

This example has actually been used to demonstrate that a warblade is far from overpowered, as it actually loses to fighter and barb in terms of damage output (though it more than compensates with consistency and versatility).

The warblade does have its breakpoints where it can seem unusually strong. For example, at 5th lv, my warblade can do 7d6+1.5str damage on a hit (greatsword, bonecrushor in punishing stance). The only way a fighter can match this is with haste.

So yeah, martial adepts will have moments where they shine, but you should find that they will not dominate all the time.

Rabid Wolf Strike: Power Attack for 5 in Punishing Stance (for a total of 2d6+2d6+1d6+10+1.5*Str). That hurts. I can tell out of experience. Hurts even more if you're Raging as a Barbarian though; the combo of Barb/Fighter+Warblade/Crusader outpaces either in the early game.

But yeah, level 1 Barbarian with Extra Rage and Whirling Frenzy is a superb damage dealer, so...yeah.

[Coidzor]

Are they reasonably balanced, or are they a head above everyone else? Assume a low-medium level of optimization.

Their baseline is higher than the baseline of the other[Edit: melee/martial] classes simply because they have that suite of tools.

A sorcerer can cripple itself more easily than a martial adept can as well, due to the nature of the tools being chosen and the number of possible choices. However, that generally takes something worse than low-medium optimization and something along the lines of intentionally doing so.

[Thrawn183]

Is the non-ToB melee class getting haste at level 5? I've found that level 5 is the worst because normal melee is still stuck on one attack per round right when ToB classes get access to third level maneuvers. A haste spell pretty much makes this difference go away.

[Lapak]

Are they reasonably balanced, or are they a head above everyone else? Assume a low-medium level of optimization.

Well, low-medium optimization is exactly where they shine (which can be good or bad depending on how low 'low' is.)

ToB does two major things for melee characters:
1.It automates optimization to a certain degree.
- ToB characters come out with a decent power level almost regardless of what choices you make, and (short of ridiculous theoretical optimization) have a smaller power range than many other classes. As someone has already said, a highly-optimized barbarian will outperform a ToB class while a badly-optimized one will suck; most ToB characters will land in the mid-high end almost by default.

2. It gives melee characters a greater range of actions, both in possible actions and in action economy.
- Maneuvers and stances give a melee character options they wouldn't otherwise have: special leap attacks, ignoring DR, the power of healing-through-beatdowns. They also give the character something to do with each of their actions - while a non-ToB melee character must use a full-round action to get their best, a ToB character's maneuver is a Standard action. This frees up their Move action to, you know, move. ToB also gives them some options for what to do with their Swift and/or Immediate actions, which is nice.

Both of these things can be problems or benefits depending on the rest of your group: if everyone else was already using Moves and Swift actions a lot it evens things out for melee, and that's good - but if everyone was just using one action a round your combats might seem slower. If everyone else builds characters with an eye to balancing power and character, the auto-optimizing is good - but in a group that lets power slide completely or puts optimization ahead of character-building, the ToB characters will be skewed from the norm.

[Saph]

ToB characters are very strong in the level 1-4 bracket, arguably the strongest classes in the game.

I remember one short campaign which ran from levels 1 to 3. The party was a wizard, a scout, a swordsage, a druid, a cleric, and a warblade (me). My warblade pretty consistently outperformed everyone else, practically one-shotting encounters with combos such as Steel Wind and Punishing Stance. The druid and swordsage were able to keep up with me, but the wizard and scout were left far behind.

I'd say they're still balanced, but they're on the high end of the power scale and as a DM you'll probably have to upgrade the melee opponents to match them.

[Psyren]

Don't forget the two other melee benchmarks - Psywars and Binders.

At early levels, Psywars are supreme grapplers with Expansion and Grip of Iron. They can also gain at-will Displacement at level 2 with the Deception Mantle, Super Sunder with Destruction, or become nigh-impossible to grapple themselves with Freedom.

Meanwhile, at 1st level Binders are becoming sundering fiends themselves, strapping on free full-plate, getting half their Con score to AC, turning invisible and gaining sudden strike.

[Godskook]

Swordsage and Warblade can both do that as well, and some other stuff, without having to charge. That is a tiger strike that works well at lower levels. The barbarian can only do so once per day, the warblade can do it every other round.

Steel Wind is an Iron Heart maneuver that does this as well, and the more likely pick for a warblade who isn't going to focus in TWF.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Meanwhile, at 1st level Binders are becoming sundering fiends themselves, strapping on free full-plate, getting half their Con score to AC, turning invisible and gaining sudden strike.

Well, it's more like pick one of those things at low levels. Also, did you mean Ardent instead of Psychic Warrior? You mentioned a lot of mantles.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, it's more like pick one of those things at low levels. Also, did you mean Ardent instead of Psychic Warrior? You mentioned a lot of mantles.

Mantled Warrior ACF, opens up a lot of good powers for Psychic warriors. and IIRC ardents are tier 2 not 3

[Greenish]

Don't forget the two other melee benchmarks - Psywars and Binders.

Speaking of forgetting, you left out totemists.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mr RAW I have four or five natural attacks attacks at level 2 totemist. That is hard to beat at low levels. Warforged totemist 2/barbarian 1 is an awsome uberpuncer at low levels.

[CycloneJoker]

Even though they don't get their craziness until level eight, I have done quite a bit with Factotums. Marshal/Factotum tripping monster, or Iaijutsu dude, though he wasn't as good at low levels.

[Godskook]

Mr RAW I have four or five natural attacks attacks at level 2 totemist. That is hard to beat at low levels. Warforged totemist 2/barbarian 1 is an awsome uberpuncer at low levels.

1.You don't need barbarian in that, although it does free up a precious chakra bind.

2.4-5 natural attacks is low for a totemist, considering Girallon yields 4 on its own. An optimized character should be hitting 6-7 by level 3, and can hit at least 9 without utilizing any of the heavy cheese(Read: Warshaper).

[Psyren]

Well, it's more like pick one of those things at low levels.

Most Binders pick just one at first level. Humans or anyone else with a bonus feat (e.g. flaws) can swap them out every minute as needed (or even every other round, though that makes the check pretty hard.).

Also, did you mean Ardent instead of Psychic Warrior? You mentioned a lot of mantles.

I also mentioned the word "or." - meaning just one Mantle. (Though a Psywar 5 can have two if he wants.)

Speaking of forgetting, you left out totemists.

razmfrasm incarnum

[dextercorvia]

1.You don't need barbarian in that, although it does free up a precious chakra bind.

2.4-5 natural attacks is low for a totemist, considering Girallon yields 4 on its own. An optimized character should be hitting 6-7 by level 3, and can hit at least 9 without utilizing any of the heavy cheese(Read: Warshaper).

I'm having difficulty seeing how to get more than 4 by level 3. The oft cited Dragon Tail is not referred to as a Natural Weapon, or a Tail Attack, and only has a mechanic for making a single attack with it as a Standard Action.

All of the other Soulmelds which grant Natural weapons require that they are bound to the Totem Chakra, and you cannot have Double Chakra until 9th.

[Godskook]

razmfrasm incarnum

Also duskblades

I'm having difficulty seeing how to get more than 4 by level 3. The oft cited Dragon Tail is not referred to as a Natural Weapon, or a Tail Attack, and only has a mechanic for making a single attack with it as a Standard Action.

All of the other Soulmelds which grant Natural weapons require that they are bound to the Totem Chakra, and you cannot have Double Chakra until 9th.

Warforged route: Jaws of Death + Second Slam + Girallon Arms = 7

Dragonblooded route: Dragon Tail feat + soulmeld + Girallon Arms = 6

As for Dragon Tail not working as a natural attack, I've never heard anyone make that argument before, and I'll grant that reaching 6+ is going to be a bit more difficult for it.

Also, I missed exactly when binds become available, and the barbarian dip is also useful for getting pounce that early.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm not sure a "low optimization" totemist is going to end up with 9 attacks per round. Duskblades are pretty good out of the box, though.

[true_shinken]

Mystic Frakking Ranger > ToB.

[Endarire]

Consider what a Totemist/Barbarian/Rogue could do with all that sneak attack. Hmm.

Also, I agree with Private Prinny's response. I'm DMing a group from L1, now L2. The group has 2 Crusaders and 2 Warblades. People are consistently at full health after and during fights and foes just die because of Pounce and Punishing Stance.

[Draz74]

Yeah, ToB is nasty at low levels, maybe even too nasty.

But there are a number of other non-Core classes who, although they're middle-Tier, are disproportionately good at very low levels, particularly Level 1. Some have already been mentioned, but I'll point out two more:

• Dragonfire Adept. At-will area effect 1d6 damage, save for half, is amazing at Level 1. Entangling Exhalation ... well.
• Incarnate. My vote for strongest class at Level 1. At-will 3d6-acid-damage ranged touch attack. Yikes.

[Bang!]

Add some of the Savage Species outsiders to that list. There are a couple with front-loaded Outsider hit-dice, silly ability/speed mods and Cleric casting at or beyond that of appropriate-level characters.