Precision damage: Am I dooming my players?

[Keinnicht]

So, I'm playing a gestalt game. The PCs are evil, and have been being Chaotic Stupid evil for awhile. Naturally, there's now a hunter of evil-doers after them. He's two levels higher than them, which I figured is reasonable given it's 4 vs. 1.

The thing is, his a gestalt rogue/scout. He's going to ambush them. He has rapid shot. There's a fair chance a player could take 3D8+15+21D6 damage in the first round of combat. This is at level 8.

...This feels like it could be a problem. That's averages out to somewhere around 103 points of damage. That's probably fatal even to the party uber-tank (Dwarf barbarian/fighter, 22 CON)

[arguskos]

So, I'm playing a gestalt game. The PCs are evil, and have been being Chaotic Stupid evil for awhile. Naturally, there's now a hunter of evil-doers after them. He's two levels higher than them, which I figured is reasonable given it's 4 vs. 1.

The thing is, his a gestalt rogue/scout. He's going to ambush them. He has rapid shot. There's a fair chance a player could take 3D8+15+21D6 damage in the first round of combat. This is at level 8.

...This feels like it could be a problem.

Do you run a simulationist-style world? By that I mean, does your world actually function in a realistic fashion, where if a group of highly armed kleptomanic hobos goes around stabbing monsters and taking their crap, sleeping in their cloaks and buying up all the shiny magical toys, someone's going to notice?

If so, then I don't see the issue, given that they've been said to be *****. If they're being bastards and Chaotic Stupid, then eventually someone's going to send a very powerful assassin after them to "remove" them from the picture. Seems legit to me. And, at level 8, it's not like they can't gain access to a raise dead.

[Greenish]

The thing is, his a gestalt rogue/scout. He's going to ambush them. He has rapid shot. There's a fair chance a player could take 3D8+15+21D6 damage in the first round of combat. This is at level 8.

What do you use to move & full attack, Travel Devotion?

[Edit]: If the tank has 2+ levels in barbarian, and hasn't swapped Uncanny Dodge away, he won't take SA damage from the barrage.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

At the same time, they're not playing in some sort of cyberpunk setting where dying before you can even act is par for the course. Maybe your assassin is cocky and tries to kill two of them at once.

[Keinnicht]

What do you use to move & full attack, Travel Devotion?

Good point.

[Vladislav]

That's probably fatal even to the party uber-tank (Dwarf barbarian/fighter, 22 CON)

I would chance a guess that this is exactly the kind of attitude that got your players to be Chaotic Stupid in the first place.

Your world reacts reasonably to the PCs schenanigans, sending a powerful assassin after them. Your enemy is powerful, but not overpowering (+2 levels and gestalt 1-vs-4), and this has all the makings of a memorable battle. You seem to have done your homework.

Yet, your only worry is that one of the PCs might die.

To which I respond:

Spoiler

Show

Well duh

[Seatbelt]

Just be careful not to drop them in the first round of combat. Nobody likes that. Its way more frightening to have him split his full round attack between a number of targets and do and *almost* kill them. Then the players know they're in serious trouble but still think they can win. Also now the cleric has to spend a round keeping someone from getting killed. So you hurt their action economy.

[Kaww]

What do you use to move & full attack, Travel Devotion?

Good point.

Blood spike (move action) + belt of battle is a TPK here.

Survivors will be happy if they get the BoB tho...

EDIT: Also what Vladislav said.

[Curmudgeon]

Since Scout and Rogue have complementary capabilities, in gestalt Scout//Rogue is quite a bit weaker than other options. You only need Scout 3/Rogue X with Swift Ambusher to get a lot of the abilities of both classes (full skirmish and near-full sneak attack), and that only uses up one side of the gestalt.

I say: go for it. This isn't an unreasonable opponent to throw at the PCs. You could take the above and have Cloistered Cleric on the other side of the gestalt, with Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86) to give full sneak attack progression from your Cleric levels, full spellcasting, and Travel, Elf, and Knowledge domains to grant Point Blank Shot and (after conversion) Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion. And of course you'll cast Divine Power for full BAB on those attacks, as well as other personal buffs. Now that would be a challenging enemy!

[Kaww]

Just be careful not to drop them in the first round of combat. Nobody likes that. Its way more frightening to have him split his full round attack between a number of targets and do and *almost* kill them. Then the players know they're in serious trouble but still think they can win. Also now the cleric has to spend a round keeping someone from getting killed. So you hurt their action economy.

He can't drop the barbarian. Also note that the assassin should know this too and will not target him.

[Thespianus]

Sacred Outlaw[/I] (Dragon # 357, page 86) to give full sneak attack progression from your Cleric levels, full spellcasting, and Travel, Elf, and Knowledge domains to grant Point Blank Shot and (after conversion) Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion. And of course you'll cast Divine Power for full BAB on those attacks, as well as other personal buffs. Now that would be a challenging enemy!

Oh, how I dislike Gestalt. ;) This is a good reason why. :)

[Lapak]

Does any one member of the party have any kind of panic-button escape that could get them clear of the ambush? If so, having to pay for all of those Raise Deads might give them a reason to be less Chaotic Stupid.

[EagleWiz]

How optomised are the PCs?

[Ravens_cry]

He can't drop the barbarian. Also note that the assassin should know this too and will not target him.

In Soviet D&D, Barbarian Targets You!
Seriously though, will the assassin know this? After all, unless your playing a game where one goes to Barbarian School to learn to be a Barbarian, classes are meta.

[Mando Knight]

Since Scout and Rogue have complementary capabilities, in gestalt Scout//Rogue is quite a bit weaker than other options. You only need Scout 3/Rogue X with Swift Ambusher to get a lot of the abilities of both classes (full skirmish and near-full sneak attack), and that only uses up one side of the gestalt.

I say: go for it. This isn't an unreasonable opponent to throw at the PCs. You could take the above and have Cloistered Cleric on the other side of the gestalt, with Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86) to give full sneak attack progression from your Cleric levels, full spellcasting, and Travel, Elf, and Knowledge domains to grant Point Blank Shot and (after conversion) Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion. And of course you'll cast Divine Power for full BAB on those attacks, as well as other personal buffs. Now that would be a challenging enemy!

You could also use a mount to move + full attack with ranged weapons.

[Greenish]

You could also use a mount to move + full attack with ranged weapons.

That won't qualify you for Skirmish though, thanks the the blood stupid errata. (Scouts were practically made to be horse archers!)

[Kaww]

In Soviet D&D, Barbarian Targets You!
Seriously though, will the assassin know this? After all, unless your playing a game where one goes to Barbarian School to learn to be a Barbarian, classes are meta.

Interesting question. I always assume that the assassin knows the details about the victims, because the employer provides these.

You are making me think and my players always end up crying when this happens.

Still even without this info I'd just cut his throat while sleeping since he's the toughest. That or aboleth mucus on arrows. Everybody knows if you want to kill a group the casters have to die first or you are a dodo...

[Mando Knight]

That won't qualify you for Skirmish though, thanks the the blood stupid errata. (Scouts were practically made to be horse archers!)

Really? That's... well, "stupid" doesn't quite cover it.

[JaronK]

In Soviet D&D, Barbarian Targets You!
Seriously though, will the assassin know this? After all, unless your playing a game where one goes to Barbarian School to learn to be a Barbarian, classes are meta.

I imagine basic rules apply... including "geek the mage." So the assassin's not going to target the big guy in armor with the giant axe. He's going to be looking for the guy in robes who doesn't look to physically fit (hit a Wizard, not the Monk) and the guy in armor with a simple weapon and holy symbols (hit the Cleric, not the Paladin). The guy wearing fur but without weapons with an animal companion might be a Druid too.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

How optomised are the PCs?

the party uber-tank (Dwarf barbarian/fighter, 22 CON)

Nope, not Feat Rogue//Barbarian. Fighter//Barbarian. That's how optimized they are.

[Jayabalard]

He can't drop the barbarian. Also note that the assassin should know this too and will not target him.

hmm... uncanny dodge doesn't stop the skirmish damage. It also doesn't stop the sneak attack damage if the barbarian is immobilized in some way, so finding a way to do that would be important for the ambushers.

Knowing that the barbarian has uncanny dodge is not necessarily something that makes sense IC... it really depends on what is known about the characters. If they've killed most of the people who've seen them, it's unlikely to be known.

Nope, not Feat Rogue//Barbarian. Fighter//Barbarian. That's how optimized they are.

I don't think he said the PCs were gestalt...

[Kaww]

So, I'm playing a gestalt game...

I don't think he said the PCs were gestalt...

It's the first sentence of the thread.

[Shalist]

Why wouldn't a sneaky type know whether his opponent's guard was lowered or not? Presumably something like that would be apparent in the way the target moved--always at ready and alert, like a cat ready to pounce, etc--and someone well trained in exploiting unaware opponents would be able to tell, and thus pick a different target.

Also, /scout says to me that he wouldn't mind doing a bit of hit 'n run--pick off a caster or two (or whoever was most threatening to him), run away, and use his superior woodsman-ness to ambush them again later on, maybe even wearing the barbarian down over the course of several battles, using some dwarfbane arrows--or just something anti-evil--he brought along just for that purpose *shrug*.

edit:

Any chance the npc might want to take some of them alive, ie for a bigger reward? He could change his mind partway through the fight, of course.

[JaronK]

If you want, you could give the guy Merciful weapons so he can take down most of the party without actually killing them. Give him a decent escape plan too (Shadow Hands are good for this, as they let you have Shadow Jaunt and similar) so he gets away when things get ugly. Having this guy hound them for a while might be a great way to teach them not to make so many enemies... perhaps his first attack will be alone, but when he loses the first fight he will escape and then track the party, attacking them next time when they're wounded or already engaged with something else.

And if he wins that first fight, he can bring them back for a bounty, at which point they're imprisoned and now it's a prison break game.

JaronK

[BobVosh]

If you want, you could give the guy Merciful weapons so he can take down most of the party without actually killing them. Give him a decent escape plan too (Shadow Hands are good for this, as they let you have Shadow Jaunt and similar) so he gets away when things get ugly. Having this guy hound them for a while might be a great way to teach them not to make so many enemies... perhaps his first attack will be alone, but when he loses the first fight he will escape and then track the party, attacking them next time when they're wounded or already engaged with something else.

And if he wins that first fight, he can bring them back for a bounty, at which point they're imprisoned and now it's a prison break game.

JaronK

This sounds promising. Let them know that the bounty is dead or alive, but alive comes with a higher bounty. This will prevent them from being complacent about not being killed, and allow you to instantly drop one player in a surprise round without worrying.

[woodenbandman]

Your PCs are being evil. Don't go light on them. Don't let the assassin engage stupidly in a situation where he won't be able to kill one of them and easily escape. That's what his employers sent him for. His purpose is to kill people. Purportedly, he's good at it. Don't be afraid to employ poison, night ambushes, traps, bears... anything. Let it all out.

[The_Jackal]

Okay, the three steps to ensuring you're in the right when you murder your party:

Step 1) Foreshadowing. Let the players know that someone has it in for them. You don't have to give away the form their doom shall take, but you do have to let them know that trouble is coming, and why it's been sent.

Step 2) Give them every chance. If you're doing an ambush, give them perception rolls to spot the guy laying a trap for them. Do they have a tracker? How about a survival roll to see that someone's come this way before? Don't just start combat with 'you take 78 damage, roll initiative'.

Step 3) Step 3. Don't coup de grace. Yes, play to win, put the biggest threat down asap (that usually means dropping the healer on the surprise phase), and don't be afraid to use some really fiendish tricks to give your guy the upper hand (try starting a landslide during round 1, makes the whole area difficult terrain and lets the PCs take some extra damage, possibly becoming trapped). But don't shoot anyone who's already unconscious to finish them off. Don't have the assassin shoot running players in the back while there's other PCs still making themselves a threat. Make the challenge for this encounter 'getting away alive'. Your assassin doesn't have to kill them all at once. He's patient, methodical and thorough. He can bag 2 PCs and wait another month to set another ambush when they're not watching. If your PCs are really that scummy, who's going to raise their healer for them? No one's going to do it for free, and the folks who take money and ask no questions are expensive.

[Ravens_cry]

I imagine basic rules apply... including "geek the mage." So the assassin's not going to target the big guy in armor with the giant axe. He's going to be looking for the guy in robes who doesn't look to physically fit (hit a Wizard, not the Monk) and the guy in armor with a simple weapon and holy symbols (hit the Cleric, not the Paladin). The guy wearing fur but without weapons with an animal companion might be a Druid too.

JaronK

That gets more difficult in gestalt because you can have a easily make class combination that avoids those stereotypes, like mixing melee with arcane spell casting. And Keinnicht did indeed say it was gestalt.

[awa]

Your PCs are being evil. Don't go light on them. Don't let the assassin engage stupidly in a situation where he won't be able to kill one of them and easily escape. That's what his employers sent him for. His purpose is to kill people. Purportedly, he's good at it. Don't be afraid to employ poison, night ambushes, traps, bears... anything. Let it all out.

the world should be realistic but you shouldn't punish them for being evil. an assassin is an assassin you should not make him more deadly just because his targets are evil.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I would chance a guess that this is exactly the kind of attitude that got your players to be Chaotic Stupid in the first place.

Your world reacts reasonably to the PCs schenanigans, sending a powerful assassin after them. Your enemy is powerful, but not overpowering (+2 levels and gestalt 1-vs-4), and this has all the makings of a memorable battle. You seem to have done your homework.

Yet, your only worry is that one of the PCs might die.

+1

the world should be realistic but you shouldn't punish them for being evil. an assassin is an assassin you should not make him more deadly just because his targets are evil.

No, you punish them for being Stupid Chaos evil. In a relaistic world, if they are blowing up hospitals and rampantly murderering people around town, they're going to make powerful enemies. Powerful enemies hire powerful assassins to send powerful messages to future powerfully stupid individuals.

That gets more difficult in gestalt because you can have a easily make class combination that avoids those stereotypes, like mixing melee with arcane spell casting. And Keinnicht did indeed say it was gestalt.

If the people who are after the party hired a professional assassin, then the assassin would do their homework. They wouldn't know class abilities per-se, but they would know the aptitudes of the party and have an understanding of their abilities, but not a perfect understanding.