Your Thoughts on Entangle [3.5]

[cowsay]

This is my first post . . . if I'm breaching some protocol please don't hesitate to let me know.

Our group has been playing together since 3rd edition emerged. It's a good group with lots of personalities, professions, and experiences. We've become good friends over the years and the gaming has been great. Yesterday, for the first time in all those years, we had a serious blow up after a great 7 hour session of party v. party (something we do a few times a year). The crux of the ferocious debate was around Entangle. (I should acknowledge that I took no part in the debate--I just watched it unfold from a mild discussion about the spell into a shouting match among 8 of the 10 of us.)

The debate fluxuated around whether Entangle was "broken", "just fine", "overpowered", "lopsided", "situational", "the most powerful first level spell period", "extremely good, but so rarely used in our/most campaigns as to be not a problem", "something that should be nerfed", and "very overrated".

I am now curious what people in this community think on this question that so agitated our group's harmony. With the hope that I am not stirring up a hornets nest here, I would appreciate knowing member's thoughts on Entangle.

[Starbuck_II]

Situationally very strong.
The issue is it is too vague of where it can be used. Like underground you can argue roots attack, but some DMs are stiff on that issue.

I wouldn't say overpowered though.

[jguy]

Low levels its a game breaker if allowed to get off, especially if you use it on a group of ranged attackers. -4 to hit is harsh. At high levels where everyone can make their saves, it prevents charging and such, allowing the casters more time to pump out spells.

[Scarlet-Devil]

It is a very useful spell, but also situational; the way I see it, it gets to be, perhaps, slightly more powerful than other spells of its level because of its restrictions, namely: it requires plant life, so can really only be used in natural, outdoor environments, and also that it does not discriminate (IIRC) between you and your allies, and your enemies.

[Tyger]

There is no question that Entangle is one of the top first level spells out there, particularly for Druids. It loses some of its power if the DM is "realistic", i.e. there is no vegetation in a lot of places for it to function (though be warned that there are RAW legal ways of getting around that quite handily).

Additionally, unless Heightened, the Reflex save eventually becomes relatively easy to beat, and by mid levels, that DC 20 STR or Escape Artist (which means STR really, who has ranks in Escape Artist?) is a low water mark.

Of course, in some instances, it is of lesser value. Flying creatures are generally out of it's range and a lot of critters don't care if they can't move, and can attack the party just fine from range (though ware that -4 to DEX and -2 to To-Hit that the entangled condition imposes).

That said, its a great spell, our group's druid player has it on his "perma-memorized" list, and it has saved our butts more times than I care to think about. I wouldn't put it in the "broken" category at all, but it is definitely one of the top first level spells in the game.

[WarKitty]

How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to.

[Tyger]

How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to.

I think that if there is no reasonable vegetation around, then it would be not only RAW, but also very reasonable and realistic, for the DM to rule that it just doesn't work there. The spell is specific that it requires vegetation - inside the tavern, in the bowels of the lightless dungeon, on a ship, a wide city street... where is the vegetation that is grabbing people?

[Scarlet-Devil]

How many DM's enforce the restrictions? I'd probably strangle mine if he tried to.

Hmm, the restrictions are a pretty major part of the spell though; not enforcing them would be a pretty big handwave on the DM's part.

Edit: Dirty, stinking, ninjas!

[WarKitty]

I think that if there is no reasonable vegetation around, then it would be not only RAW, but also very reasonable and realistic, for the DM to rule that it just doesn't work there. The spell is specific that it requires vegetation - inside the tavern, in the bowels of the lightless dungeon, on a ship, a wide city street... where is the vegetation that is grabbing people?

Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

[cowsay]

It is a very useful spell, but also situational; the way I see it, it gets to be, perhaps, slightly more powerful than other spells of its level because of its restrictions, namely: it requires plant life, so can really only be used in natural, outdoor environments, and also that it does not discriminate (IIRC) between you and your allies, and your enemies.

There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

[Tyger]

Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

Which is why its a first level spell. If your DM(s) are waving that significant restriction, then yes, I would place the spell in the "broken" category. As written, its powerful. Letting it work against the clear wording of the spell would render it far, far more versatile and thus worthy of a boost in level... like maybe third. After all, it is a bigger spread than Evards, has a longer range and has the same basic power, arguably greater as it imposes restrictions on those within it that Evard's does not, really just lacking the damage component.

[cowsay]

There is no question that Entangle is one of the top first level spells out there, particularly for Druids.

Would you be willing to expand on this point a bit? There were widely ranging opinions in our group. One player said that it was hands down the best spell in the game at first level. A couple of others thought it was in a handful of elite first level core spells. Others thought the intermittent opportunities to use the spell made it most useful for druids, who could at least Summon Nature's Ally when they'd prepared it. The players who like druids most in our group said it
was usually the first spell they'd opt out of to cast SNA I. Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?

[Tyger]

There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

The "potted plants in the room" part would not work per RAW. The Entangle spell merely imposes the entangled condition, which states that it impedes movement "but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force". A potted plant, unless it is one big damned pot, does not meet that requirement.

[WarKitty]

Which is why its a first level spell. If your DM(s) are waving that significant restriction, then yes, I would place the spell in the "broken" category. As written, its powerful. Letting it work against the clear wording of the spell would render it far, far more versatile and thus worthy of a boost in level... like maybe third. After all, it is a bigger spread than Evards, has a longer range and has the same basic power, arguably greater as it imposes restrictions on those within it that Evard's does not, really just lacking the damage component.

What control spell would you replace it with? The druid list simply doesn't have that much in the way of control at first level, other than the mostly-useless fog cloud.

I've also found that at level 3 and 4, even low-level enemies can make their saves about half the time. Hardly game-breaking.

*sigh* I guess it's one of those things - I usually pick a theme for my divine casters, instead of just picking top spells, because it doesn't make sense to me that he always knows all those spells. I guess I'm running up against "casters suck at low levels" again.

[Scarlet-Devil]

There was considerable debate about how the spell actually worked, in part along the lines you suggest here and in part opposed to your interpretation. Some felt that as long as there were some lichen or roots within the area of the spell that the spell worked on any creatures within that area. So it might work, some said, underground or, as one person said, if there were potted plants in the room.

Lichen seems highly iffy, given that it's a relatively flat fungus, but living roots and potted plants are probably more within reason. The spell says

"Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine...

, also the spell's area is "Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread"; It seems to be pretty much up to the DM whether it works given the available materials, or for example, if the area is modified based on the available plants. The spell description even notes that DMs can modify the effects of the spell based on the nature of the plants.

[Tyger]

Would you be willing to expand on this point a bit? There were widely ranging opinions in our group. One player said that it was hands down the best spell in the game at first level. A couple of others thought it was in a handful of elite first level core spells. Others thought the intermittent opportunities to use the spell made it most useful for druids, who could at least Summon Nature's Ally when they'd prepared it. The players who like druids most in our group said it
was usually the first spell they'd opt out of to cast SNA I. Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?

Because in the conditions where it works, it can dramatically alter the combat. Ten raging orc warriors in its spread become pincushions if they didn't have ranged weapons, and even if they do, they are less likely to hit with their throwing axes (or whatever) owing to the -4 to hit on ranged attacks, and far more likely to get hit, with that -2 to to AC they are suffering under. And its spread is sooooo huge.

Forty foot radius, and castable at long range??? If you manage to spot the ambushers hiding in that copse of trees one hundred feet ahead of you, you can instantly take them out of the fight... it is a really good spell. But only if you are outdoors and / or in an area full of vegetation. Useless in most of the desert, all but useless in your average dungeon, etc. But a druid in the forest with this can change the face of the combat easily.

[cowsay]

Of course, in some instances, it is of lesser value. Flying creatures are generally out of it's range and a lot of critters don't care if they can't move, and can attack the party just fine from range (though ware that -4 to DEX and -2 to To-Hit that the entangled condition imposes).

There was some debate on this point as well. That is, that the 40-foot radius spread could affect creatures in all three dimensions, especially in a place with tall vegetation or trees or vines, etc. So, one player argued, this spell gets its full potential in the forest.

This line of thinking led to considerable debate about whether the plants within the 40-foot radius (i.e., targets within the area) can entangle any creature within the sphere or only those in close proximity to the affected plants. (For instance, could a tree/bush planted in the center of a stone pavilion affect any creature within the space, etc.). The vehemence of these particular interpretations was staggering.

[Volos]

Entangle is an amazing spell. Once I ruled that the druid could use plant growth to basically widen the spell's effect, and ended up regretting it. The druid then casted blight, killing all the entangling roots and vines. The wizard followed with a fireball, burning the entire group of undead that was attacking. ...never again.

Branching into entangling effects, the most effective one that I have seen so far, outside of the spell Entangle itself, was Entangling Exhalation from Races of The Dragon. Now I know what you're thinking, how is this related? It is a use of entangled condition that not only is easy to direct attack your foes only, but does damage at the same time. Any Half-Dragon can take Dragon Breath from Races of The Dragon to be able to breath more often than once a day. Extangling Exhalation allows him to not only damage his foes, but keep them tied up while he is busy doing something else (like waiting for his next breath to come back). Yes, he is doing half damage to entangle, but that forces spellcasters he hits to make high concentration checks to cast anything and keeps the fast moving melee types from charging. It takes, on average, the same amount of time for his breath weapon to recharge as it does for the entangled effect to wear off. In short, he can just spam breath weapon untill whatever is infront of him is not infront of him anymore.

[cowsay]

Because in the conditions where it works, it can dramatically alter the combat. Ten raging orc warriors in its spread become pincushions if they didn't have ranged weapons, and even if they do, they are less likely to hit with their throwing axes (or whatever) owing to the -4 to hit on ranged attacks, and far more likely to get hit, with that -2 to to AC they are suffering under. And its spread is sooooo huge.

Forty foot radius, and castable at long range??? If you manage to spot the ambushers hiding in that copse of trees one hundred feet ahead of you, you can instantly take them out of the fight... it is a really good spell. But only if you are outdoors and / or in an area full of vegetation. Useless in most of the desert, all but useless in your average dungeon, etc. But a druid in the forest with this can change the face of the combat easily.

Thanks for this. I see your points. The spell is MUCH easier to discuss, it seems, when we are speaking of an area full of vegetation.

I also think that it is hard, given the variety of spells at first level, to say that this is THE best first level spell. It is certainly a great spell for the reasons you've described: range, large area, duration, failed save still has an effect, ability to adjust the size of the area (at least on the ground), the power of the controlling effects of the spell (especially at lower levels). Nonetheless, it strikes me that there are other VERY powerful spells more attuned to other circumstances. It strikes me that the most reliable use of entangle is to escape, at least that's what I was thinking during the debate last night. (It is kind of funny that no one else brought that up. I think the rangers I've played have used the spell most effectively for that; although the pincushion tactic has also been useful.)

[Tyger]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it is "THE best" first level spell, that would depend on a few factors, not the least of which is which books are included. But its a damned good spell, in a particular set of circumstances. In the forest, its scary good. In town/dungeon, nah, I'll memorize Faerie Fire or Produce Flame instead.

[Akal Saris]

Druids don't have a lot of other game-changing 1st level spells, so I can see entangle being prepared often.

If I had a low-level 3.5 druid, I'd prepare entangle, aspect of the wolf, sandblast, wall of smoke, and enrage animal in his 1st level slots, with scrolls for faerie fire, obscuring mist, and speak with animals, and wands for spells like endure elements, produce flame, longstrider, snake's swiftness, and lesser vigor/cure light wounds.

[AslanCross]

Situationally very strong.
The issue is it is too vague of where it can be used. Like underground you can argue roots attack, but some DMs are stiff on that issue.

I wouldn't say overpowered though.

I'm of this opinion as well. It's awfully powerful if you've got plants underneath, but the DM's got to cede you the point that there are plants at all available.

[Coidzor]

Nonetheless, both said they prepare it almost every day and sometimes more than once. What makes this such a good spell that some people think it is the best spell or among the best first level spells in the game?

Battlefield Control, mostly. It's got the best ability to control one's enemies movements, debuff them, and allow for advantageous attacking of caught foes by anyone with a ranged attack without having one's vision blocked by fog like with most of the other 1st level BC spells.

[Starbuck_II]

What control spell would you replace it with? The druid list simply doesn't have that much in the way of control at first level, other than the mostly-useless fog cloud.

I've also found that at level 3 and 4, even low-level enemies can make their saves about half the time. Hardly game-breaking.

*sigh* I guess it's one of those things - I usually pick a theme for my divine casters, instead of just picking top spells, because it doesn't make sense to me that he always knows all those spells. I guess I'm running up against "casters suck at low levels" again.

Frostburn added Ice Slick, grease spell but ice based.

[Pentachoron]

Who adventures in places with vegetation? Everything I've played has been either indoors or underground. Maybe one session in the woods, but the party usually finds a way around that. You might as well just ban the spell.

My group is outdoors often, probably about equal to how often we're inside or in a dungeon. I assumed that was the same for most parties. I find entangle to be useful when the melee members of the party stop to think first, otherwise I just hit them with it too

[Yahzi]

Low levels its a game breaker

Yep.

One entangle + a handful of 0th level mooks with bows = uber. Not only does Entangle jack your chances of shooting back, it makes you easier to hit.

If both sides can cast Entangle, the encounter usually involves a lot of feinting and retreating until somebody is finally out of the spell. Which, admittedly, is kinda cool.

But it's the uberest 1st level spell ever (well except for Charm Person). People don't realize that because most characters spend their entire adventuring careers indoors.

[cowsay]

But it's the uberest 1st level spell ever (well except for Charm Person). People don't realize that because most characters spend their entire adventuring careers indoors.

"Uberist"? Can you talk more about this?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I wouldn't say it is *THE* best 1st level spell, but it is certainly one of a handful which I would make sure to have prepared, if I was able to, and I knew I was going somewhere with vegetation.

It's a Save or Screwed, and Even if you DO Save, you're still Nerfed spell. As long as there is vegetation around.

It's handy. It's useful. It's not particularly game-breaking unless the GM lets it be. If all you have are clumps of melee-only threats that stay together and have poor Reflex saves. Then yes, it's probably going to be more powerful than if you are caught in an ambush by rogues with shortbows spread out all over.

In fact, I've seen poor uses of Entangle, which actually hampered the party, because they Entangled the opponent casters. Who either made their saves, or simply didn't care because they had high enough Concentration checks to ignore the problem. But trying to get to them to take them down...

[Coidzor]

"Uberist"? Can you talk more about this?

As in the most uber or bestest.

As for the other part, well, there's not many plants in most dungeons.

Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread

So it kinda puts a damper on the spell being used if one is doing a more traditional dungeon delving sort of game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As in the most uber or bestest.

As for the other part, well, there's not many plants in most dungeons.

So it kinda puts a damper on the spell being used if one is doing a more traditional dungeon delving sort of game.

Roots and fungus are plants...