So why doesn't the locate city bomb work?

[druid91]

It really seems like it should to me. Does aanyone have an argument as to why it wouldn't?

[Alleine]

I think there's a couple. One of which is that because the area is a circle and not a cylinder all the people hit by it will simply be pushed up a bit and then fall back down.

There may also be a problem with the legitimacy of the metamagic applied to it, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

[JupiterPaladin]

I believe that the last argument I seen against the Locate City Bomb trick was the fact that Locate City has a 2-dimensional area of effect and the Explosive Spell (or whatever that metamagic feat was called) requires a 3-dimensional area of effect to activate the effect.

[ex cathedra]

The problem with metamagic is that the Locate City bomb requires you to add metamagic to the spell that the spell itself doesn't allow, and there's nothing in the rules insofar as I know that allows you to effectively 'chain' metamagic onto a spell by way of other metamagic. Specifically, you can't add Explosive Spell or Fell Drain to the spell without first adding Flash Frost, and there are no rules that stipulate that you can add metamagic to spells in a sequential order.

[Fortuna]

The problem with metamagic is that the Locate City bomb requires you to add metamagic to the spell that the spell itself doesn't allow, and there's nothing in the rules insofar as I know that allows you to effectively 'chain' metamagic onto a spell by way of other metamagic. Specifically, you can't add Explosive Spell or Fell Drain to the spell without first adding Flash Frost, and there are no rules that stipulate that you can add metamagic to spells in a sequential order.

The metamagic changes the spell, IIRC, and effects are applied in the most beneficial order.

[JeminiZero]

The 2 dimensional problem only applies to the Explosive version of the LCB. The Fell Drain version works regardless of the area's shape, since it is premised on triggering a wightpocalypse, as explained here:

I couldn't find a link that explained both variants, so here is my attempt:

1: Take Locate City, a spell with a range of ten miles per level
2: Apply snowcasting (FB) - spell now has the cold descriptor
3: Apply flash frost feat (PHB2) - spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area (and makes area slippery but we don't care about that)

Variant 1:
4: Apply energy substitution (electricity) (CArc) - spell now deals electricity damge
5: Apply born of three thunders (CArc) - spell deals half electric, half sonic, but what is important is that it now requires a reflex save, allowing us to...
6: Apply explosive spell (CArc) - all creatures/things in area that fail their reflex saves are shunted to the outside of the area of effect (10 miles/level) and take 1d6 damage per 10 ft moved!

Variant 2:
4: Apply Fell Drain (Libris Mortis). Any creature that takes cold damage (from Flash Frost) also gains a negative level. Humanoids with only 1 HD are instantly slain, and will rise as Wights.
5: When cast in the middle of a crowded population centre, where 99% of the people are level 1 NPCs, you effectively convert 99% of them into Wights.
6: What follows is carnage as the 99% attack the remaining 1% and turn them into Wights. The army of Wights can then move to the next city, and turn the entire populace there to wights. And the next city, and the one after that. This chain-reaction is also known as the Wightpocalypse.

Note: The problem with Variant 1 is that Locate City could arguably occupy a flat circle rather than a sphere. If it were a sphere, the "edge of the area" as per explosive spell would be miles away, and would cause hundreds of damage. Whereas if it were a flat circle, the "edge of its area" would be immediately adjacent, thereby causing no damage.

[rayne_dragon]

Also, DM fiat. I find it difficult to believe that even if the rules technically permit it that an actual DM would allow it to work. Most of the ones I know would likely say: "stop being silly" and then get on with the game.

EDIT: Further, the ones I know who would allow it would make you wish you hadn't cast it at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On the argument of the-area-is-a-circle, the spell's description specifies that it could locate underground cities if the travel route is shorter than one on the surface. A two-dimensional circle wouldn't locate anything below the surface or even up a slight hill. A circle as per the English language is not limited to two dimensions, and can even refer to a spherical shape (16). Given these two points, the area of effect of Locate City is 10 miles/level from the caster, in all directions, capable of locating cities anywhere in that three-dimensional area.

[Sintanan]

My DM let me prepare the fell drain version as we were wrapping up the campaign to switch to a different game for a while..

My char screwed up the spell and basically nuked the city he was in... Campaign finished up with dead rising from the slaughtered peasants.


...I wonder what's in store for the party when we return to 3.5?

[Ytaker]

I believe that the last argument I seen against the Locate City Bomb trick was the fact that Locate City has a 2-dimensional area of effect and the Explosive Spell (or whatever that metamagic feat was called) requires a 3-dimensional area of effect to activate the effect.

Wouldn't that also rule out fireball, one of the spells specifically noted in the feat as an example of a spell you could apply explosive spell to? That doesn't have a 3d effect as noted in the rules, and isn't a a cone, line, or burst spell.

It's a pretty cool effect, concepwise. The dark lord scries and all weak people die of coldness. It's just rather overpowered.

[JupiterPaladin]

Wouldn't that also rule out fireball, one of the spells specifically noted in the feat as an example of a spell you could apply explosive spell to?

Technically, while the SRD listing for Fireball may leave out height dimension of the spell, it is listed as a Spread area of effect which is a variation of the Burst effect. We all know that Fireball is a Burst type spell, it just has the ability to wrap around walls or whatever based on where it is cast. I always enjoyed casting it in narrow hallways to make it stretch farther

[Urpriest]

Also, DM fiat. I find it difficult to believe that even if the rules technically permit it that an actual DM would allow it to work. Most of the ones I know would likely say: "stop being silly" and then get on with the game.

EDIT: Further, the ones I know who would allow it would make you wish you hadn't cast it at all.

There's a third option:

DMs often have the most system mastery of a group, and generally have the most reason to destroy (or threaten to destroy) kingdoms. I think it's quite likely that most of the honest attempts to use the Locate City Bomb are by DMs themselves.

[Cog]

Also, the Flash Frost metamagic requires the spell to affect an area. Fireball affects it by putting a good chunk of fire damage in that area. Locate City does nothing to affect the area it encompasses.

[Jayabalard]

It really seems like it should to me. Does aanyone have an argument as to why it wouldn't?

I've seen lots, though I don't generally recall a lot of consensus about their validity or lack.

Edit: This list is more for completeness in answering the OP, than because I necessarily believe these arguments. Personally I find them enough to be extremely skeptical about the legality of the LCB as a whole.

• Problems with using Energy substitution (see KoDT69's post), arguing that energy admixture is instead required, which makes it a higher level spell.
• Whether Explosive spell version does anything, since the area is specified as a circle rather than a 3d shape. Sure, you can point at stuff and say that it implies that it has a 3d area, but really, that opens you up to counter arguments along the lines of "that the implied the area of effect is just the caster."
• Whether Flash frost actually makes the spell deal damage (I can't remember where I saw this one, I seem to recall it was disregarded quickly); most of the people talking about a locate city bomb say stuff like "Flash Frost deals 2 damage" rather than "locate city deals 2 damage" ... the combo requires that the spell deal damage.
• That the text of flash frost says "Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost." ... so at the point you add that, it already has to deal damage via cold and ice, which it doesn't. I think the consensus I saw on that was to agree to disagree.
• That the listing under area for locate city is an error, that it actually only has a range like discern location (this is a strictly RAI rather than RAW argument).

[Crow]

Could something like the locate city bomb be used with a spell such as Control Weather?

[Jayabalard]

Could something like the locate city bomb be used with a spell such as Control Weather?

the spell level would wind up prohibitively high, it's a much smaller radius, and it does still suffer from some of the same arguments (eg: Area is a circle, whether the flash frost text rules over the requirements in the table or not, etc).

Spoiler

Show

Actually, you need to have Energy Substitution to learn Energy Admixture as well. Specifically, you have to have Energy Substitution matching the energy type you want to use Admixture for. This is going to make this trick require a higher-level caster.

Feat selection for a human wizard attempting this:

Bonus feats in bold
1 - Snowcasting (-1)
1 - Flash Frost (+1) (+0)
3 - Energy Substitution [electricity]
5 - Born of the Three Thunders (-1)
6 - Explosive Spell (+2) (+1)
9 - Arcane Thesis - Locate City
10 - Energy Admixture [electricity] (+3) (+2)

So a 10th-level human wizard will be able to cast this as a 1st-level spell 2nd-level spell (if Arcane Thesis allows individual metamagics to be reduced below 0. If not, it'll be a 4th-level spell slot.) You'll have to be 14th-level in order to cast the bomb without Arcane Thesis because it's going to take up a 7th-level spell slot.

Let's not forget that Arcane Thesis has the added bonus of tacking +2 to your caster level onto the chosen spell, which means we're adding an extra 20 miles to the radius. And of course note that we're not applying Energy Substitution, it's only there as a prereq to Energy Admixture.

Edit: I accidentally applied Energy Substitution. We're not actually applying that to the spell any more, so it ends up taking a 2nd-level slot with Arcane Thesis cheese.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Problems with using Energy substitution (see KoDT69's post), arguing that energy admixture is instead required, which makes it a higher level spell.

At the time when Flash Frost is applied, it is a [cold] spell, and that is the only time when the qualification needs to be met. Applying Energy Substitution afterward does not retroactively disqualify and remove Flash Frost, this portion of the combo works.

Whether Explosive spell version does anything, since the area is specified as a circle rather than a 3d shape. Sure, you can point at stuff and say that it implies that it has a 3d area, but really, that opens you up to counter arguments along the lines of "that the implied the area of effect is just the caster."

"Area: 10 miles/level radius circle, centered on you" I've already shown that 'circle' does not limit it to two dimensions, that word describes a round shape in which every point on the boundary is the same distance from the center. The various definitions include the possibility of it referring to a sphere rather than a two dimensional shape, which is exactly what it does in this case. It clearly affects an area, the boundary of which is a uniform distance from the caster. "Range: 10 miles/level" would imply that you can center the spell anywhere within range, which is the only reason 'centered on caster' is specified in the area. Nothing is implied about it only affecting the caster, the spell affects its entire area.

Whether Flash frost actually makes the spell deal damage (I can't remember where I saw this one, I seem to recall it was disregarded quickly); most of the people talking about a locate city bomb say stuff like "Flash Frost deals 2 damage" rather than "locate city deals 2 damage" ... the combo requires that the spell deal damage.

"A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area." The flash frost effect may be what's referenced in the combo's execution, but the spell itself is clearly what deals this damage.

That the text of flash frost says "Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost." ... so at the point you add that, it already has to deal damage via cold and ice, which it doesn't. I think the consensus I saw on that was to agree to disagree.

That's flavor text. Look one feat to the left of that on the same page, Infernal Sorcerer Resistance: "You are as tough and resilient as an infernal monstrosity, allowing you to shrug off acid and cold damage." Does this mean that if a given infernal has DR and natural armor, making it tough and resilient, that this feat would also grant those abilities? What a feat's flavor text may imply has nothing to do with what a feat's mechanics actually do.

That the listing under area for locate city is an error, that it actually only has a range like discern location (this is a strictly RAI rather than RAW argument).

If foreign translations also specify an area, if there are no conflicting references such as text vs table, then you go by what the words say.

None of the arguments against the Locate City Bomb actually work. This is one of those tricks that shouldn't be, but it is.

[ericgrau]

IIRC the arguments boil down to "locate city can't locate cities" and "one of the feats doesn't work but this other feat replaces that one and makes it work." Or of course there's "Because your DM can inflict bludgeoning damage with various nearby D&D related objects."

IIRC it theoretically does work. OTOH if you're literal enough to accept the nuke then the "locate city can't locate cities" argument ("it's a 2D circle") is also overly literal so you can take down the argument with its own tactics.

[Jayabalard]

At the time when Flash Frost is applied, it is a [cold] spell, and that is the only time when the qualification needs to be met. Applying Energy Substitution afterward does not retroactively disqualify and remove Flash Frost, this portion of the combo works.

Out of curiousity, do you have a citation of some sort on this? It seems quite clear that all of the metamagic must remain valid or the entire combo is invalid... it would stop being eligible for the earlier metamagic after applying energy substitution, and the consensus on that thread was pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

"Area: 10 miles/level radius circle, centered on you" I've already shown that 'circle' does not limit it to two dimensions, that word describes a round shape in which every point on the boundary is the same distance from the center. The various definitions include the possibility of it referring to a sphere rather than a two dimensional shape, which is exactly what it does in this case. It clearly affects an area, the boundary of which is a uniform distance from the caster. "Range: 10 miles/level" would imply that you can center the spell anywhere within range, which is the only reason 'centered on caster' is specified in the area. Nothing is implied about it only affecting the caster, the spell affects its entire area.

I didn't find your argument very convincing. If you're going to say go with the text, then the text says circle, and you're stuck with that, no height; if you want to argue based on the text, then there's problems with flash frost (below), and with the fact that the only thing in the area that is affected by the spell is the caster.

That's flavor text. Look one feat to the left of that on the same page, Infernal Sorcerer Resistance: "You are as tough and resilient as an infernal monstrosity, allowing you to shrug off acid and cold damage." Does this mean that if a given infernal has DR and natural armor, making it tough and resilient, that this feat would also grant those abilities? What a feat's flavor text may imply has nothing to do with what a feat's mechanics actually do.

That's an Apples to oranges comparison.
"You are as tough and resilient as an infernal monstrosity" - the particular infernal monstrosity is not identified, so there's no reason to assume any particular abilities are gained.
"allowing you to shrug off acid and cold damage." - specific abilities of the arbitrary infernal monstrosity are spelled out.

likewise "Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes" - defines what spells are eligible,
"leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost." defines what it does to those spells.

you're inserting things into your example that don't have a match in the frost example. And it's not just flavor text, it's the description text... the full description of the spell.

[Keld Denar]

I didn't find your argument very convincing. If you're going to say go with the text, then the text says circle, and you're stuck with that, no height;

This particular argument...is wierd.

If you read the spell that way, it would barely even work. Say...if you were standing on a hill, you wouldn't locate the city down in the valley, even if you could see it down there. If you were in the valley, you similarly couldn't find the city on the hill.

So, either it works, or the spell doesn't work as printed. I'd be more inclined to believe that it actually works in 3 dimensions, and thus actually functions, rather than believe that its truely 2 dimensional, and thus nearly worthless.

[Jayabalard]

This particular argument...is wierd.

If you read the spell that way, it would barely even work. Say...if you were standing on a hill, you wouldn't locate the city down in the valley, even if you could see it down there. If you were in the valley, you similarly couldn't find the city on the hill.

Not at all... the only thing affected is you the caster; you gain knowledge as to the location of a city. So you have to be inside of that circle (and you are) to be affected by the spell. You can detect any city according to the range of the spell, which isn't constrained to a shape. So the area of effect has no bearing on what cities you can detect.

[Urpriest]

This particular argument...is wierd.

If you read the spell that way, it would barely even work. Say...if you were standing on a hill, you wouldn't locate the city down in the valley, even if you could see it down there. If you were in the valley, you similarly couldn't find the city on the hill.

So, either it works, or the spell doesn't work as printed. I'd be more inclined to believe that it actually works in 3 dimensions, and thus actually functions, rather than believe that its truely 2 dimensional, and thus nearly worthless.

No, the spell is actually quite explicit about this. It only finds a city in a two-dimensional circle, however the spell is also explicit that the circle is not flat. If you read the spell description, it says that the spell counts distance not "as the crow flies" but rather as the distance one would actually travel. So if you're in a valley the circle deforms along the valley's shape. It's a 2D spread, effectively.

[Tengu_temp]

The correct answer is "Locate City Bomb doesn't work because it's an obvious rules exploit". Why discuss semantics?

[Gametime]

No, the spell is actually quite explicit about this. It only finds a city in a two-dimensional circle, however the spell is also explicit that the circle is not flat. If you read the spell description, it says that the spell counts distance not "as the crow flies" but rather as the distance one would actually travel. So if you're in a valley the circle deforms along the valley's shape. It's a 2D spread, effectively.

I think this is the most sensible (and text-supported) interpretation. It does mean you have to ignore the part about it being a circle, though, because a circle that isn't flat isn't really a circle at all.

[Urpriest]

I think this is the most sensible (and text-supported) interpretation. It does mean you have to ignore the part about it being a circle, though, because a circle that isn't flat isn't really a circle at all.

Bull****. Circle is a 2D shape, it can have any curvature it needs to. That's like saying a cube of space isn't a cube if there's a black hole in the middle. It's still a cube, just a non-euclidean cube.

[Gametime]

I'm not a math major, so anything I say might be wildly inaccurate, but a quick trip to Wikipedia defines a circle as a shape in Euclidean geometry.

For that matter, I find it hard to believe that the writers intended that players have knowledge of non-Euclidean geometry in order to figure out what the heck their spells do. Assuming that their usage of circle was colloquial makes a lot more sense than assuming they are invoking advanced geometry.

[LtPowers]

To my mind, the problem here is the Flash Frost feat.

First of all, it says: "A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area." Note the word "targets". To me, that indicates that the +2 damage/level bonus applies only to creatures and objects targeted by the spell in question. I can't seem to find Locate City anywhere so I don't know what its stats are, but if it doesn't have a Target line (as, for example, Locate Object does not), then flash frost would add no damage.

If that doesn't work for any given reason, then I fall back on the fact that Flash Frost is poorly written. It should either explicitly apply only to targets already receiving damage as a result of the spell, or it should limit the radius to a reasonable distance per level.


Powers &8^]

[Keld Denar]

That...can't be right. Most spells you'd apply Flash Frost too, namedly AoE damage energy spells, don't have targets either. Fireball...no target. Lightning Bolt...no target. Cone of Cold...no target.

Target is a word (like offhand) that's used as both a mechanics term and a descriptive term. Look at Ray of Enfeeblement. It doesn't have a "Target:" line, but in the descriptive text, it talks about firing it at a target. No target, yet you target with it? Both can't be mechanical terms, so one must be descriptive and one must be mechanical.

Thus, you could draw the conclusion that the term "target" in Flash Frost mearly refers to people in the area, rather than people targeted by the spell.

[Jayabalard]

No, the spell is actually quite explicit about this. It only finds a city in a two-dimensional circle, however the spell is also explicit that the circle is not flat. If you read the spell description, it says that the spell counts distance not "as the crow flies" but rather as the distance one would actually travel. So if you're in a valley the circle deforms along the valley's shape. It's a 2D spread, effectively.

It doesn't say anything of the sort. The text only talks about distance... distance is only a valid term in reference to the range, not area.

There is nothing in the text that implies that the area of effect has anything to do with finding the city... the spell just finds one that is within the range of the spell, and that you calculate the distance without crossing though any solid objects. The area declaration is totally superfluous, and does not affect the process that the text lays out in any way.

The only valid interpretations that I can see for the area declaration is that

1. the caster (the thing actually affected by the spell) must be inside of that area.
2. That it serves as an outer bound when applied to a map to make it easier for DMs to make snap judgements about whether the city is in range or not; no city that is outside of that size circle drawn on a map can be within the range of the spell as the text requires it to be calculated. It's only outer bound though, since it's possible to be inside of that circle on the map but outside of the range depending on solid objects that may be in the way.

Bull****. Circle is a 2D shape, it can have any curvature it needs to. That's like saying a cube of space isn't a cube if there's a black hole in the middle. It's still a cube, just a non-euclidean cube.

No, actually it can't; the definition of a circle requires that it falls on a single plane, which means it cannot have any other curvature. If it has the type of curvature you're talking about, then it is not a circle, it's some other 3 dimensional curve.

[Alleine]

"A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area."

I believe the bolded part was the target of one argument I've heard. There's no damage done by locate city so it can't deal any extra damage, therefore the whole thing falls apart. Not sure if that's true though. I'd have to be more knowledgeable about how the words extra damage are used in other places.