[3.5] Level-up advice

[Craulnober]

I'm currently playing a elf rogue in a party that doesn't include any fighters, only spellcasters. That leaves my character and a cleric getting in all the melee.
I've taken TWF and Finesse and my high DEX helps me a lot.

It's now time for me to pick-up my next feat and unfortunately I cannot seem to decide.
I don't have the necessary BAB for Improved TWF or for Staggering Strike. I'll be later getting Knowledge Devotion.
Craven is not an option (I'm good and I don't think my DM would allow it).
Improved Initiative may be a choice, but it seems to be very poor for a rogue feat.

Are there any other feats that you could suggest? (even non-melee feats that you could consider worth-taking)
Is an Exotic weapon proficiency and a thinblade worth the feat?

[Yuki Akuma]

Martial Study: Wolf Fang Strike?

Martial Study: Some Shadow Hand Maneuver, so you can take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and then Shadow Blade?

[Craulnober]

My character's background and role is not very "compatible" with martial arts unfortunately. Also Daring Outlaw is ruled out, as I'm not interested in swashbuckling.

[Ernir]

What level are you now, and what feats do you already have? Are you considering to multiclass or PrC out?

[Craulnober]

I just reached Rogue 6. I mentioned my feats at the first post: TWF and Weapon Finesse. Wis is my dump stat, Dex is my best.
I don't think I'll be multiclassing (as I'll have an XP penalty in any other class than wizard because I'm an elf). I'll be getting a custom-made PrC in my next level which will give me eventually two more feats (although with a restricted choice) so it's an only-rogue choice.

[LansXero]

What is your character background? Do you have any info on that PRC? perhaps knowing what you´ll get from it you could choose a feat that will compliment that :O

[Craulnober]

Here's the short background version. Grew up in Elventree. Left later in order to adventure and found himself in the Bloodstone Lands. He is now in the scout/spy network of the King of Damara (that's the PrC coming later). He is gathering whatever piece of information he can get and being in these hostile lands he has to fight often.
Skills like Bluff, Knowledge (Local), Gather Information are important too.
The PrC is a combo of other PrC like Zhent and Harper Scout.

[Thespianus]

Depending on what weapons you are using, maybe Telling Blow (PHBII) could be fun if you're not sure what to do?

It gives you the ability to add your Sneak Attack damage on a confirmed Critical Hit. It's not a very optimized feat, but it tends to make critical hits all that more fun. :)

If you're going to spend a lot of time on the front line, maybe Improved Toughness (+1 HP / character level) would be worth your while?

A melee rogue who don't multiclass have a fairly limited amount of choices, if you don't focus heavily on Use Magic Device.

Curmudgeon could probably help you alot (and tell you why my recommendations above are useless ;) )

[Craulnober]

Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.
I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.
Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.

[true_shinken]

Seconding Martial Study: Rogafufuken Wolf Fang Fist Strike
Not enough Dragonball references, I say! Simply not enough!
Improved Buckler Defense sounds like an option as well. I like Surprise Riposte, but that's not for everyone and probably doesn't fit your build.
I'd also like to invite everyone to my movement: say no to Telling Blow! This feat is not good for the standard Rogue and is a step backwards in the most fun thing about Rogues - removing their Dex bonus to AC.

[Thespianus]

Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.

The numbers aren't that good, but I just love the flavor of it. But each to his own, not everyone enjoys chanting "Crit! Crit! Crit!" as soon as you roll a Threat. ;)

Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.

The standard feat "Toughness" gives a fixed 3 HP, it sucks.

The Improved Toughness feat (Complete Warrior, I think) gives 1 HP/ level, basically upping your Hit Die one step.

[Amphetryon]

Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.
I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.
Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.

Elven Thinblade is almost certainly not worth it.

Improved Toughness is 1HP/level; Toughness is 3HP total.

Consider Knowledge Devotion, if your Knowledge skills are important to you; it will provide a useful boost to your ability to be the melee-er.

[DeltaEmil]

Telling blow would be nice, but of course only with a rapier. Although I saw in another topic that in numbers it's not that good a feat really.

It really depends on how often you can score a critical hit (taking a keen enchantment or having the improved critical feat makes it a must), but yes, it's not that good.

I was also thinking about an elven thinblade, but it requires an exotic feat and I'm not sure if it's worh it.

It's never worth for an one-point damage increase.

Are you sure about Improved Toughness? I thought it gives a fixed number of HP, 3 or 4.

Improved Toughness is a different feat from Toughness, although it's not that awesome. However, at level 6, this will already give you double the amount of normal Toughness, if you have a +2 fortitude bonus and you would take it.
Take a look at Tome of Battle anyway, especially the Shadow Hand-school, which does help with rogue-types. Just refluff these martial arts maneuver, everyone can do it.
If you're dead-set on not taking it, I'd suggest you take a look at Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel for feats.

[Thespianus]

Consider Knowledge Devotion, if your Knowledge skills are important to you; it will provide a useful boost to your ability to be the melee-er.

He mentioned he'd get Knowledge Devotion later, in the OP?

Travel Devotion? It goes well with the Elf and TWF theme, too...

[Greenish]

He mentioned he'd get Knowledge Devotion later, in the OP?

Rogues have only one knowledge as a class skill, though. Even with the extra one from the KD itself, he'll be hoping for rather homogenous enemies.

EWP usually isn't worth it, but there's Kusari-Gama, light reach weapon which can also attack adjacent, in DMG. If you want more weapons options, Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW or RoS, I forget) gets you all your racial weapons: elven quickblade, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, elven courtblade, elven prettyblade and so forth. None of them are really worth it, though (except maybe courtblade for two-hander finessable).

Being Good doesn't mean you have to be brave.

[drakir_nosslin]

Complete Scoundrel (I think) has a lot of feats based on your sneak attacks that might be worth looking into. Gives you a bit more variety in melee.

[Ruinix]

Combat Reflexes (PH) --> Vexing Flanker (PH2) --> Adaptable Flanker (PH2). i know is 3 feats but the first is almost a must with THAT dex being a melee, and the AF it totally worth the price.

and if DR/Cristal Keep materia is allowed, then with this combo take Backstab (DR340) it totally awesome with CR + AF
and ofcourse, also in DR/Cristal Keep, Sneak Attack of Oportunity (DR340) let you add ur SAs to the AoO ^^

[true_shinken]

Being Good doesn't mean you have to be brave.

Better part of valor, better part of valor!
He probably means his DM won't let him use stuff from Champions of Ruin, though.

[Ruinix]

almost forgot. i know, yo alredy said you have a self made PrC but still, take a look of Master of Mask (C.Scou p52), i think is what u r looking for and have a pleanty of resources

[Noneoyabizzness]

would agree with the combat reflex tree to improve you aoos.

of course if I were goign to rework it as a melee rapier dual weilder...

rogue 1 dodge
swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse
r2 mobility
sw2
r3
sw3 daring outlaw
dread commando 1-2
dc3 twf
dc 4-5
swashbuckler4 improved twf
rogue4/ swash 5
rogue 5 Spring attack
tempest 1-5 greater twf


5d6 sneak attack, +2 dodge bonus to ac, good init boosts to the whole party no armor check penalties in light armor, less penalties to twf and +int to dmg even early on has worth

edit if you want to try and go rogue only with this concept go dodge them mobiltiy at 9th slip into dread commando fo the init and armor check boosts,pick up improved twf @ 12th, spring at 15th when back to rogue and last 5 im tempest if your goal is still to be an absurdly ambidextrious twf

[Yuki Akuma]

Alternatively, skill tricks can be good. You're Rogue, you have lots of skill points - buy a few skill tricks and then a feat that gives you even more.

There's one that lets you make someone flat-footed once per combat as a swift action, I think. But don't quote me on that.

Also, maneuvers don't have to be fluffed as formal martial arts. You could take one of the supernatural strikes and fluff it as an innate magical power you inherited from your ancestors, for instance - maybe you're part Drow. Or take one of the mundane strikes and it could just be a trick you worked out.

[Cyrion]

None of the elven racial weapons are really worth spending an exotic weapon feat on. However, if the flavor attracts you, check with your DM and see if he'll let you retrain your unused longsword proficiency for one of the elven weapons.

[Human Paragon 3]

Could you take cloak dance? The concealment may help you stay alive on the front lines.

[bartman]

If you like TWF, then Complete Adventurer has Oversize TWF, allows you to dual weild rapiers for the -2/-2. It does require STR 13, so you may not meet the pre-reqs. Another option i go with for DEX heavy builds, and this is dependant on your DM allowing 3rd party material. Alderac entertainment put out a book called "Feats". It is 3.0 era, but it has a feat called "Superior Finesse". It requires combat expertise and weapon finesse, but allows you to do DEX to damage instead of STR.

These are usualy must have choices for my rogues, and although I am by no means an optimizer, i do pretty well handling my own in my group.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can get Dex to damage in first-party. Shadow Blade - requires you to know a Shadow Hand stance, and lets you add Dex to damage (in addition to Str) on any Shadow Hand weapon.

So it's not exactly brilliant for someone with a Strength of 6, but... If you have Dex 18, it's still a net +2 damage.

[Human Paragon 3]

Another thought: encourage yours spellcasters to summon creatures. They will provide extra melee support and give you lots of flanking buddies!

If you feel you have to do this yourself, you can take the water devotion feat in complete champion to let you occasionally summon a water elemental flanking buddy. You can ask for your DM's help working into your story, maybe a sylph enchants your wine skin or something.

Or take leadership and grab a fighterly cohort.

[true_shinken]

Just noticed something - Weapon Focus (whip), Pyrokineticist 1 and Dead Eye.
Now you have Dex to damage without ToB.

[Thespianus]

Rogues have only one knowledge as a class skill, though. Even with the extra one from the KD itself, he'll be hoping for rather homogenous enemies.

I throught I responded to this, but the Internet ate it: He mentioned that he's going into an unspecified PrC, I figured that PrC got some more Knowledge skills.

[Curmudgeon]

Craven is not an option (I'm good and I don't think my DM would allow it).

You might want to reconsider that. Craven, though it's in Champions of Ruin, is a general feat and has no association with evil.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter.

[true_shinken]

You might want to reconsider that. Craven, though it's in Champions of Ruin, is a general feat and has no association with evil.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter.

It's something his DM doesn't want. Kind of hard to reconsider that.