[4e] Help with build

[true_shinken]

I've been invited for a 4e campaign. It's supposed to be a pirate game, but one of the other players told me this should not affect my expectations or builds - I don't know why he said that.
We are a group of five with all roles already covered (Paladin, Ranger, Wizard and Artificer) so I have a lot of room to do what I want, which makes me happy. I'm really bad about marrying fluff to crunch in 4e, so I came here for advice.
I have three character ideas:

1. An ex-knight. He was a jousting champion, an ascending noble... and then he screwed up. Slept with too much lords' wifes. He is now a sword for hire, mixing his knight training with streetsmarts. He is supposed to be charming and dangerous - the kind of boy parents don't want their girls to meet. I kind of wanted him to fight with a longsword in one hand and nothing in the other, but I think that is going to be hard. I also wanted to wear leather armor. I initially thought Rogue as a class, but it neglects the whole Knight thing (and I don't think you can sneak attack with a longsword). Is there anthing about jousting in 4e?
2. An elven Sorcerer that hates elves (well, Eladrin would probably work best) so he want to be a dragon. His home town was destroyed by goblinoids because they breed faster - they overcame the elves by numbers in less than a century. This guy thinks elves are stagnant, stupid - a race for the ancient times, old fools better off dead. "I'm sick of being an elf. I might as well be a dragon." This is an idea I got from a novel based on 3.5... I really don't think I can pull this out, what with elf/eladrin stat bonuses and draconic sorcerer requirements, but still.
3. A spellcaster lycanthrope. I have no idea how lycanthropy works in 4e, but my thoughts for this are pretty simple - she was a dedicated scholar, a bit power hungry even. The kind that laughs on non-casters as 'uneducated fools'. One night, searching for forgotten lore in a forest, she is attacked by a lycanthrope... and becomes one. I wanted to different 'focuses' for her - a blasty/leaderish persona for her scholar type and a melee grinder for the hybrid form.

Any help is greatly apreciated. I think I can get most books with the group, but the DM unfortunately has a ban on hybrids

[RebelRogue]

1. Swordmages benefit from having a free off-hand, but are decidedly magical. If you don't mind that, it might work. A brawler fighter might to do the trick too (I think, AFB), but I'm not sure how knightly that may be (a dirty fighting one...)

2. Well, elf or eladrin sorcerer seems the obvious way to go, butyou're right that the stats are sort of non-supportive. As an alternative, perhaps you can refluff a wizard or warlock somehow?

3. Shifters seem to fit the bill, mostly. They all have lycanthrope blood in their veins. Upplaying that should give you the appropriate feel. They're born like that, though, not inflicted with it. Works best for Wis-based casters.

[Kurald Galain]

(1) There is nothing about jousting in 4E, although there is a little bit about mounted combat (which is not a particularly effective option, though). If you don't mind wielding a parrying dagger in your off-hand (which would be a logical choice IRL) then a two-blade ranger or tempest fighter would work. Both are mostly a str/dex build, and get some manner of defense bonus for not wearing heavy armor. Leather armor is only one point behind hide, that difference is not a big deal.

(2) the main question here is, what kind of sorcerer do you want? Blasting, debuffing, summoning, something else? And note that anything sorcerers do, wizards tend to do better, but that's a simple matter of switching your class. Dragon sorcerers predictably work best with dragonborn, but don't worry overly much about racial stat bonuses, they are overrated.

(3) lycanthropy in the way you descrbie it doesn't really exist in 4E. Overall your best bet here is to be a druid: they get blasty powers and can shift into a melee form.

[true_shinken]

Thanks for the advice, folks. I greatly apreciate it.

1. Swordmages benefit from having a free off-hand, but are decidedly magical. If you don't mind that, it might work. A brawler fighter might to do the trick too (I think, AFB), but I'm not sure how knightly that may be (a dirty fighting one...)

Oh, I think Brawler fighter could be just what I wanted, specially with MC Rogue. Which book is it from?

2. Well, elf or eladrin sorcerer seems the obvious way to go, butyou're right that the stats are sort of non-supportive. As an alternative, perhaps you can refluff a wizard or warlock somehow?

It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?

3. Shifters seem to fit the bill, mostly. They all have lycanthrope blood in their veins. Upplaying that should give you the appropriate feel. They're born like that, though, not inflicted with it. Works best for Wis-based casters.

Yeah, I wanted an afflicted lycanthrope...

(1) There is nothing about jousting in 4E, although there is a little bit about mounted combat (which is not a particularly effective option, though). If you don't mind wielding a parrying dagger in your off-hand (which would be a logical choice IRL) then a two-blade ranger or tempest fighter would work. Both are mostly a str/dex build, and get some manner of defense bonus for not wearing heavy armor. Leather armor is only one point behind hide, that difference is not a big deal.

Do I need to invest much for mounted combat? Because I wouldn't mind spending a few resources to be good at it even if it doesn't come up that often he is supposed to be a jousting champion, after all. Two weapons sounds logical and fits the streetwise theme, but I really can't picture a knight doing this.

(2) the main question here is, what kind of sorcerer do you want? Blasting, debuffing, summoning, something else? And note that anything sorcerers do, wizards tend to do better, but that's a simple matter of switching your class. Dragon sorcerers predictably work best with dragonborn, but don't worry overly much about racial stat bonuses, they are overrated.

I wanted somewhat of a gish. Now that I think about, Swordmage with MC Sorcerer to get into the 'I'm a dragon' paragon path later might work better. I would even get good NADs, I believe - Strength/Intelligence/Charisma.

(3) lycanthropy in the way you descrbie it doesn't really exist in 4E. Overall your best bet here is to be a druid: they get blasty powers and can shift into a melee form.

Lycanthropy is not a disease in 4e? Eberron fluff is forever maimed.

[Ceaon]

I like idea #1 best.
However, for idea #2, maybe a half-elf would work?

[Blackfang108]

Oh, I think Brawler fighter could be just what I wanted, specially with MC Rogue. Which book is it from?


It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?

1.) MP2
2.) Actually, that's Sorceror-King Pact Warlock that has the 'Becoming the Dragon' Paragon Path, IIRC.

*Therion Fans, DYSWIDT?*

[true_shinken]

2.) Actually, that's Sorceror-King Pact Warlock that has the 'Becoming the Dragon' Paragon Path, IIRC.

I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

[Blackfang108]

I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

You can use the Sorceror-King pact outside of Dark Sun.

stupid time limits.

[true_shinken]

You can use the Sorceror-King pact outside of Dark Sun.

It would make no sense fluffwise, but whatever, that wasn't my point. Dark Sun has always been the least flashy of all D&D settings.
Even then, I'm trying not to worry too much about this stuff. I could just take Warlock MC and refluff it for something else (because a Sorcerer-King pact outside of Dark Sun makes no. sense. at all). I won't be getting to paragon that soon anyway.

[gourdcaptain]

Eladrin Dragon Sorcerer isn't.... terrible. The essentials updates switched them to +2 Int/+2 Cha or Dex, meaning you can have primary stat boosted.

There's some dragon article with an ED that turns you into a dragon - I can't remember it, because my DDI account is inactive and this computer doesn't have my Dragon magazine issues on it.

Also - you CAN sneak attack with a longsword - Versatile Duelist feat (just requires Rogue) lets you sneak attack with any one handed Heavy Blade, and I think it even gives proficiency with longswords, but I'm not sure (it's from one of the Martial Power books, methinks). There isn't really much I can think of for jousting in 4e.

[true_shinken]

Eladrin Dragon Sorcerer isn't.... terrible. The essentials updates switched them to +2 Int/+2 Cha or Dex, meaning you can have primary stat boosted.

If only it was the other way around... +2 Dex/+2 Int or Cha... I'll see if I can get my DM to change it, thanks. Though I don't know if he has essentials.

There's some dragon article with an ED that turns you into a dragon - I can't remember it, because my DDI account is inactive and this computer doesn't have my Dragon magazine issues on it.

That's waaaaay too endgame for me. No way the campaign will last that long. But thanks nonetheless.

Also - you CAN sneak attack with a longsword - Versatile Duelist feat (just requires Rogue) lets you sneak attack with any one handed Heavy Blade, and I think it even gives proficiency with longswords, but I'm not sure (it's from one of the Martial Power books, methinks). There isn't really much I can think of for jousting in 4e.

Hm, depending on how much I need to invest for mounted combat, I might just take this feat. Thanks. Does it give any other benefit?

[Kurald Galain]

It doesn't go so well with the dragon theme. There must be a 'becoming the dragon' paragon path for sorcerers, right?

There's an epic destiny that does that. I think you can turn into a dragon for one round per encounter, and at level 30 you can do it for one encounter per day, something like that. If you're starting at heroic tier, your best bet is probably to play a dragonborn, and say in your backstory that you used to be an elf.

Do I need to invest much for mounted combat?

One feat lets you use your mount's special abilities. Otherwise you don't need any investment to ride on a mount or attack from a mount, but you don't get any bonuses or new moves either.

Lycanthropy is not a disease in 4e? Eberron fluff is forever maimed.

It does exist as a disease, but its effects are pretty minor (i.e. it lets you make the occasional melee basic attacks against your allies).

[WinWin]

1. Fighter. Brawler Style. The at will power Slash and Pummel allows an attack with a weapon and a follow up unarmed strike. There a plenty of methods of enhancing unarmed attacks. For this type of build you would probably want the Weaponmaster (?) Feat for the bonus to all melee attacks rather than focussing on a specific weapon.

Jousting is basically charge optimization while mounted. Take Mounted Combat and a few feats to optimize charging and you should be good to go. Depending on the length of the campaign it may be worth multiclassing as a Paladin in order to gain access to their shiny new mount options.

2. Eladrin. Draconic Sorcerer. No specific power needs to be taken except for the Epic Daily that turns you into a Dragon. Possibly multiclass to Wizard in order to gain access to the Archmage Destiny. Then turn into a Dragon every encounter.

3. No playable lycanthropes. Racial choices have all been watered down. Closest option is to play a Beast Form Shifter Druid and pretend it is a Werewolf. A dissaponting option. The Moonspeaker paragon path (Shifter) grants a few lycanthrope themed abilities, but that is it. Primal Avatar would probably work better. To be honest, I would go with number 1 or 2 rather than try and make this option work.

[gourdcaptain]

If only it was the other way around... +2 Dex/+2 Int or Cha... I'll see if I can get my DM to change it, thanks. Though I don't know if he has essentials.

Hm, depending on how much I need to invest for mounted combat, I might just take this feat. Thanks. Does it give any other benefit?

Versatile Duelist just lets you use a one handed heavy blade with rogue powers and for sneak attack on said, and proficiency with one handed martial heavy blades. It doesn't work on MBA's, but you CAN by RAW hold a versatile weapon in both hands and still use it.

If you're playing Dragon Sorcerer you use Str as your secondary anyway. (Strong secondary too, you kinda need to invest in it semi-heavily.) Still, put the +2 into Dex and then raise it to at least a 13 so you qualify for Dual Implement Spellcasting feat.

Yeah, Mounted Combat is the only generic feat that is needed for full mount use. There's a few specific examples - Eberron has the Mark of Handling feat, which among other things, is Mounted Combat with some cool extras (increases to mount speed and defenses, bonuses to animal companions, and (very limited) ritual casting). Paladins/Cavaliers get the awesome Summon Celestial Steed power, upgrades to that, and the Paragon Holy Steed feat (+2 to defenses of mount, +Cha to mount damage). Plus, the summoned mount scales with your defenses and level. You could theoretically multiclass feat into Paladin, power swap feat for Summon Celestial Steed (LV 4 Paladin Utility, but a non Cavalier takes it in a LV 5+ utility spell slot, and work from there.)

[MeeposFire]

If you are trying to use sneak attack it is best to use the rapier rather than a longsword. Rapiers are now martial weapons in the update and the rapier has better feat support.

Brawler fighters are great weapon+fist/spiked gauntlet is a great combo. Another option is to go arena fighter. Arena fighter gets all improvised weapons as +2 prof 1d8 damage and that includes your fists. On top of that you treat all non-proficient weapons as improvised weapons (which may improve their stats). You also get a bonus to AC by tier in light armor. Lastly you get essentially two free exotic weapon prof with fringe benefits.

Jousting would just be mounted combat with spears I guess though light armor and no shields do not make for great jousting in general.

[Eorran]

You can make mounted combat significantly better with a couple of items - there's a Hand slot item that grants extra damage when mounted (I think it's +2d6) and the Horned Helm adds 1d6 to your charge attacks.

[DragonBaneDM]

I come to help with the lycanthropy dilemma, Mr. Green Lantern Avatar Man Who I See A Lot!

I played a Dwarf Battlerager Fighter once who caught it. Ended up going werebear. What I did was I multiclassed barbarian, and started heading towards the Bear Warrior Paragon Path. In the mean time, my 1/day rage feature from the MC gave me regen 2 in addition, as long as I didn't get hit with any silver. I also sorta went beserk, but the Swordmage was good at calming me down.

Now, this doesn't work for the caster, I know. So here's my idea. Play an Orbizard with High Wisdom. MC Druid. Go Weretiger or maybe Wolf. I'm sure you had a lycanthrope in mind. Head towards the Bloodmoon Stalker PP. True, it's not optimal, but it'll work. You'll need SOMETHING to make your MBA worth spending that action point in beast form though.

Use Wildshape for Fluff, and say you're a liabiltity to the party when you're in it. Your DM will probably go with it, provided he likes the creativity. Yes, heavily homebrewed, but plausible.

Tweak as necessary. DragonBane do good?

[Suedars]

I'm confused. Is this is a Dark Sun thing?
Dark Sun is the only 4e setting where you can become a dragon?! Dark Sun?!!?!
This is... frustrating, at best. But maybe Sorcerer with MC Warlock for me, then.

The Dark Sun "Become a Dragon" thing is an Epic Destiny. Sorcerors get the Dragonsoul Apprentice (PHB2) and Draconic Guardian (Arcane Power) Paragon Paths. Neither physically transform you into a dragon (which is outside the scope of a Paragon Path and more in-line with an Epic Destiny), but both have you taking on Draconic aspects.

[KingFlameHawk]

The Dark Sun "Become a Dragon" thing is an Epic Destiny. Sorcerors get the Dragonsoul Apprentice (PHB2) and Draconic Guardian (Arcane Power) Paragon Paths. Neither physically transform you into a dragon (which is outside the scope of a Paragon Path and more in-line with an Epic Destiny), but both have you taking on Draconic aspects.

Suedars has got it right. Without an epic destiny these two paragon paths are as close as you are getting. By taking one your character is effectively saying that they may not physically be a dragon but that they are one in spirit.

Also an Eladin can make a very good dragon sorcerer just make INT 8 give +2 to CHA and make CHA, STR, high and the rest how ever you want.

[WitchSlayer]

You could go with shifter and instead of flavoring it as being a full moon, say that when you get smacked around too much your werewolf side takes over to protect the host body.

[true_shinken]

Also an Eladin can make a very good dragon sorcerer just make INT 8 give +2 to CHA and make CHA, STR, high and the rest how ever you want.

This is looking good.
I'm now torn between eladrin draconic sorcerer and human brawler fighter. Eladrin looks like more of a challenge, specially in RP. This guy would feel alien to most people. We're starting at level 6 - can I have a reasonable draconic sorcerer gish at this level? Also, is there anyway to use a spear as an implement?

I'm just sad about the third option, I'll simply have to drop it. It seems it can't be done with 4e at all.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm now torn between eladrin draconic sorcerer and human brawler fighter.

Neither is a gish, though. If you want a gish, I'd suggest swordmage. If you want a fighter, consider looking into the gladiator build from Dark Sun (or simply go Tempest Fighter using your fists); I'm not overly impressed by the brawler build.

You can use a spear as an implement by taking the Arcane Implement Proficiency (Spear) feat. There's also an actual implement spear, but it only works on primal powers. An easier way of doing it is by using a Staff implement and attaching a sharp point to the end.

[true_shinken]

Neither is a gish, though. If you want a gish, I'd suggest swordmage. If you want a fighter, consider looking into the gladiator build from Dark Sun (or simply go Tempest Fighter using your fists); I'm not overly impressed by the brawler build.

The DM told me a draconic sorcerer is viable as a gish. He didn't tell me how, but he could be wrong anyway.

You can use a spear as an implement by taking the Arcane Implement Proficiency (Spear) feat.

Damn. If only I could get it with that eladrin feat... This sorcerer build is really feat starved.

[Kurald Galain]

The DM told me a draconic sorcerer is viable as a gish. He didn't tell me how, but he could be wrong anyway.

What do you mean by "gish", anyway? Do you want to be able to make melee attacks? Have good AC so you can survive standing in melee? Switch between two different modes/styles of physical and magical combat? Something else?

[true_shinken]

What do you mean by "gish", anyway? Do you want to be able to make melee attacks? Have good AC so you can survive standing in melee? Switch between two different modes/styles of physical and magical combat? Something else?

Basically that. You don't get buffs in 4e, right?

[WinWin]

By Gish I assume you want a character in front line melee.

Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged. Mixing leads to complications such as allies getting in the way of each others attacks and a disproportionate amount of hate getting dumped on the front line. You have an Artificer, so Healing Surges can be traded easily. This becomes important as front line strikers have less healing surges and hp than defenders, so they go through those resources faster.

Using a spear as an implement is possible via Hybrid, but is otherwise more of a Primal implement from what I have seen. Sorcerers are mainly light blades and staves. A knife fighting gish would probably take Ensorcelled Blade as one of their at wills as it counts as a melee basic attack. Then either a close blast like Burning Spray or a ranged burst like Blazing Starfall. Encounter and Daily powers would be better off being multitarget close powers, though ranged bursts are also good. Primarily this is because of the Sorcerer damage bonus.

Decent utility powers include Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales. Both are thematic encounter powers that buff defences. Decent Feats include Mastery of Knives for the ability to treat Kukri and Katar as daggers, Dual implement mastery and then 2 weapon fighting feats. YMMV. You may also want to set a feat aside for implement expertise.

[true_shinken]

By Gish I assume you want a character in front line melee.

That's correct, yes.

Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged. Mixing leads to complications such as allies getting in the way of each others attacks and a disproportionate amount of hate getting dumped on the front line.

But that is booooring!

You have an Artificer, so Healing Surges can be traded easily. This becomes important as front line strikers have less healing surges and hp than defenders, so they go through those resources faster.

Hm, so I should be safe in the frontlines, then?
I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this. I don't think any of my possible builds will end up with good defenses.

Using a spear as an implement is possible via Hybrid, but is otherwise more of a Primal implement from what I have seen. Sorcerers are mainly light blades and staves. A knife fighting gish would probably take Ensorcelled Blade as one of their at wills as it counts as a melee basic attack. Then either a close blast like Burning Spray or a ranged burst like Blazing Starfall. Encounter and Daily powers would be better off being multitarget close powers, though ranged bursts are also good. Primarily this is because of the Sorcerer damage bonus.

I want to focus on close blasts (is that the name? like Burning Hands in 3.5), with a few long range powers, but my meat-and-potatoes should be hitting stuff pretty hard with a spear.
...though I just noticed my basic attacks with a spear gain no benefit from Sorcerer's main class feature. Damn. Warlocks at least get Eldritch Strike.

Decent utility powers include Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales. Both are thematic encounter powers that buff defences. Decent Feats include Mastery of Knives for the ability to treat Kukri and Katar as daggers, Dual implement mastery and then 2 weapon fighting feats. YMMV. You may also want to set a feat aside for implement expertise.

Dragonflame Mantle and Sudden Scales, I'll be sure to check that. Thanks a lot!

[Kurald Galain]

Basically that. You don't get buffs in 4e, right?

No, not really.

Okay, the thing is, the sorcerer is fundamentally not a gish, but a ranged blaster. Sure, you can survive in melee - everybody can survive in melee. You can make melee attacks but in practice you never do, because your at-wills are much better. And there are a few classes that can switch between magical and physical attacks, but the sorcerer isn't one of them.

If you want a gish, try swordmage, or paladin, or 4.4 warlock, or possibly druid.

[Kurald Galain]

Keep in mind that 4e works better when everyone is melee or everyone is ranged.

Excuse me, but huh?

In my experience parties work just fine with a few frontliners and a few artillery characters. Getting in each other's way is nothing that decent tactics can't deal with; also, melee characters give neither cover nor penalties to their allies.

I'm not sure why you'd want any two-weapon fighting feats either, they're pretty bad feats overall. Most people (other than rangers and tempest fighters) just hold whatever weapon in their off-hand and call it a day.

I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this.

Depends on the books available. PHB-only paladins are not very sticky, no; they're basically a leader/striker instead. That's not necessarily a problem, though, because even a "squishy wizard" can survive at the frontlines just fine.

I want to focus on close blasts (is that the name? like Burning Hands in 3.5), with a few long range powers, but my meat-and-potatoes should be hitting stuff pretty hard with a spear.

Yes, that's the name. This combination just screams "swordmage", though. It's one of the few classes with a lot of both weapon attacks and close blasts. Or just play a warlock and call yourself "sorcerer". Don't get hung up too much on class names.

[Reverent-One]

Hm, so I should be safe in the frontlines, then?
I heard Paladins are not that good at defending, so I was a bit worried about this. I don't think any of my possible builds will end up with good defenses.

FYI, Paladin's are fine at defending, even with just the PHB I, though they got even better with Divine power. I remember Yakk putting up a long post a while ago showing this.