(3.5) Lichdom: Worth it?

[Halae]

Alright, I'm fairly new to casters in general, just coming out of my melee focused caracters now. Recently I've been having a blast playing a dread necromancer who skirts the line between good and evil, balancing evil deeds with good intentions.

My question is less roleplay oriented than that. I'm going to go to at least level 8 in dread necromancer to get that nifty increase to the number of undead that I can control (Class features that work off primary casting stat = win) but I was wondering whether I should go with 20 levels of Dread Necromancer for the lichdom and the other strange and wondrous powers that dread necros get, or if I should just prestige class out. if the second option, what are some good suggestions?

[Coidzor]

Generally no, one gets out of Dread Necro after level 8. The extra HD of animated undead could be enough of a draw to stay in the class after 8th level though, but not usually...

edit: At level 8 you have 4 BAB and a single martial weapon proficiency. So you have everything from the usual line of gish PRCs for +1 BAB, +1 CL (Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1-5, 8+7= 15 levels taken up, though probably not worth that many levels) to dipping into Warlock and becoming an Eldritch Theurge to taking up Binding for a level before going Anima Mage... Or going with this undead theme if you become a Necropolitan. Or even expanding your spell list with things like Fiendblooded/Sandshaper (taking both of which will use up your 2 level buffer for keeping 9th level spells as a pre-epic character.

Alternatively, Walker in the Waste gives Dry Lich over 10 levels so you'd get a better template 2 levels sooner than Dread Necro 20.

Some ideas from the handbook.

Personally I'd mix a bit of Abjurant Champion(Complete Mage) in with Fiendblooded(Heroes of Horror) and Sandshaper(Sandstorm) dips.

[monkey3]

I played a Dread Necro all the way to 20th. The goal was to be an undead character, with all the benefits/immunities that come with it. The easiest way to do the same is to play a Necropolitan Wizard, but we have long ago decided Necropolitan has waaay too many benefits to justify what is (essentially) a +0 LA race, so we have outlawed Necropolitan.

As such, Dread Necro and Wlaker in the Waste are the only 2 ways one can turn into an undead in our campagins while not being an NPC (turned into a vampire, etc).

For the record, my Lich Dread Necro has been my most fun character to date (in decades of RPing).

[Halae]

so wait, prestige classing makes it so that only your dread necromancer levels apply to that awesome bonues to you undead control pool?

[Diarmuid]

PrC only boost your Caster Level and Spells per day (and spells known where applicable), no other class based abilities are improved.

[Halae]

well, that clinches it - I'm not multiclassing if that's going to happen. The undead pool so large it makes DMs uncomfortable was one of my biggest reasons for taking Dread Necromancer

[Coidzor]

so wait, prestige classing makes it so that only your dread necromancer levels apply to that awesome bonues to you undead control pool?

Unless your DM allows you to flood the battlefield with wave after wave of permanent minions (and doesn't also cause a high rate of attrition for you), you're still generally better off with a stable of a few bruisers as well as utility undead who aren't primarily for fighting (such as your tunnel-digger or "airship" undead).

[Halae]

Unless your DM allows you to flood the battlefield with wave after wave of permanent minions (and doesn't also cause a high rate of attrition for you), you're still generally better off with a stable of a few bruisers as well as utility undead who aren't primarily for fighting (such as your tunnel-digger or "airship" undead).

I've done a bit of research on that, actually. My Undead loadout will be similar to the following

Spoiler

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1. Frontline: a group of skeletons, preferably respectably placed at 2-5 HD would be nice. Weak enough that they will die frequently, but with destruction retribution they will all be able to not only damage enemies but heal each other. This should be the bulk of my small army

2. Ranged: Did you know tht zombies get a bonus on strength? normally that doesn't count for much, but then you have to realize "hey, thrown weapons count for strength" and that slings count as thrown weapons. Getting a bunch of orcs together and giving them slings is a remarkably efective way to get raged attacks into the mix, and they can be devastating if the enemy can't get close enough fast enough. even better than orcs is half-ogres, since they still only have that single HD

3. Mount Dragon zombie? Hells yes. normally the single action would be a problem, but when that one action gets you more movement than a full day of walking, that doesn't get tired, and is perfectly loyal, then can let off a (admittedly weak) breath weapon if need be? Yes. Party transport needs taken care of.

4. The Big Guys If i can swing it, some skeletons from different kinds of giants would be really nice, but there is one crown jewel I really want - Hydra Zombie. interestingly, they can make essentially a full attack every round, so no need to watch as it pitifuuly only bites with one head each round. and awaken undead will let me have its fast healing back. WONDROUS!

5. Incorporeals getting a bunch of shadows together in one place is a good way to destroy a place's defenses. my thoughts on it are thus - if for some reason the enemy is dealing with the rest of my undead, he likely won't expect incorporeal undead to come up from under his feet, and very few things can stand against such creatures

My DM knows me, knows I'm a tactician. He's already expecting something like this from me, and so he'll be planning his encounters appropriately. He's never told me to tone it down before, and frankly I don't expect or want him to, and neither do the other players, it seems, as tey are apparently making character that supplement all of this insanity (did you know Dragon Shaman auras work on undead? hello fast healing, it's nice to meet you!)

I do see your point though. I'm not trying to dominate, but when I see an advantage i have a tendency to take it out of hand. That's my nature, but I'll be doing my best to tone it down if I get to working with a different DM

[Analytica]

It is not actually clear, RAW, if you get the full set of lich powers, as a level 20 DN. You clearly get the undead type, but I have seen it argued that you do not get ability increases or the ability to reform at your phylactery. Nor does it state you get a level adjustment. I actually think there was a FAQ answer somewhere to this effect as well, but might misremember.

Now, RAI, it seems likely that the capstone basically should read that you can undergo the lich transformation for free with regards to gold and XP (and also that the stupid line of your familiar leaving unless it is a rat or a bat gets dropped). If this is the case, you certainly get a LA of +4 like any other lich. Under this interpretation, there is really no reason to take all 20 levels - you become more powerful by just undergoing the rite like any other caster could.

[Vknight]

You just don't see the awesomeness yet. Lichdom as part of class features is like slice bread

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't the Cap on controlled undead based on CL? if so I am sure any prestige class that would advance a DN CL would also advance his undead control pool.

[Halae]

Didn't the Cap on controlled undead based on CL? if so I am sure any prestige class that would advance a DN CL would also advance his undead control pool.

Normally, yes, but there's one issue with that - Dread necromancers get a bonus to their Undead Controlling HD, changing the limit of the pool from 2HD/level, to 4+Charisma Modifier/Level. That's absolutely ridiculous in how much you can do with it, especially since Charisma is the primary Dread Necro casting stat, meaning it'll already be through the roof. Unfortunately, it's a class feature, which doesn't advance with PrCs

[Analytica]

You just don't see the awesomeness yet. Lichdom as part of class features is like slice bread

If indeed it is real lichdom, I guess so. But for the real Mummy Returns feel I would still rather do DN + Sand Shaper, then add the lich template the normal way. To each their own.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Normally, yes, but there's one issue with that - Dread necromancers get a bonus to their Undead Controlling HD, changing the limit of the pool from 2HD/level, to 4+Charisma Modifier/Level. That's absolutely ridiculous in how much you can do with it, especially since Charisma is the primary Dread Necro casting stat, meaning it'll already be through the roof.

ahh, now I see, you are right, the higher Animate Dead cap is indeed based on class level; but the control Undead one is based on casting level (as it refer to the spell).

My suggestion is going all the way of Dread Necro 20, animate dead is clearly superior (besided control undead is a level 7 spell ).

Also if you have access to the Draconomnomnomicon check the dragon zombie template, it is far better than the normal zombie template, though obviously it can only be applied to dragons... the skeletal dragon template wasn't half bad IIRC too.

[Halae]

ahh, now I see, you are right, the higher Animate Dead cap is indeed based on class level; but the control Undead one is based on casting level (as it refer to the spell).

My suggestion is going all the way of Dread Necro 20, animate dead is clearly superior (besided control undead is a level 7 spell ).

Also if you have access to the Draconomnomnomicon check the dragon zombie template, it is far better than the normal zombie template, though obviously it can only be applied to dragons... the skeletal dragon template wasn't half bad IIRC too.

Yeah, I've gone over those, and the Zombie Dragon one is really, really nice. even makes it so that I don't have to limit my raising dragons to 10 HD, and retaining a breath weapon is awesome *Squee*

Squees aside, yeah dread necro 20 is what I'm going to go with, and possibly even further if the campaign lasts that long. I shall be the Lord of the Dead!

[abadguy]

Convince the BSF/Paladin to go Bone Knight (Five Nations, Eberron)

Convert the cleric to a diety with undead-themes

Watch your DM fling his notes at you as your undead horde rampages through the world!

[Trekkin]

If indeed it is real lichdom, I guess so. But for the real Mummy Returns feel I would still rather do DN + Sand Shaper, then add the lich template the normal way. To each their own.

And this is why I'd go Death Master; you can be another type of undead before 20th, and it explicitly applies the lich bonuses on top of your current ones. If you're not undead, you gain Lich anyway, even if you're normally ineligible. They work rather like a battlemage crossed with an evil cleric until then anyway, especially if you use the optional material component feature to make them capable of casting in armor.

[Halae]

Quick bit of math here, taking it as if one of the group makes cleric of Wee Jas (so that he can cast desecrate for me and get his own undead)

At level 20, I will be able to (Assuming I get myself the 34 Charisma that I want) create 320 HD worth of undead. But, of course, I will be doing this in a desecrated area to double it to 640, and all of that has +6 HP per HD because of desecrate, undead master, and corpsecrafter. Then, of course, the Cleric has his pidly 80 HD worth of undead. Pfft. Still useful though.

About half of that can be mook skeletons, meant to suicide bomb the enemy. did you know chickens and most other birds count as less than a hit die? And yet they still go for the same 1d6 negative energy burst damage. Supplementing them will be Skeletal Giants, preferably an Ettin for the hardcore two-weapon fighting, but any kind of giant would be fine. assuming I get fire giants instead of ettins, I'll devote about 120 HD to them. that leaves me with 200. 50 orcish sling users takes that down to 100, which I can use for my Draconic mount, the biggest one I can find. The rest is split up between shadows and other mooks I find along the way, likely to supplement my infantry skeletons. We'd get the cleric to just go for big stuff, though. Get him some giants too.

The Dragon shaman (who is tomb-tainted) will ride up front with the skeles, giving them damage reduction and fast healing when appropriate and, since he is a semi capable front-liner, he'll be aiding them as well. I and whatever other casters flying high on the dragon peppering the enemy with spells. This strategy could give countries a run for their money if the tactics are sound enough

...

I'm thinking I'm not going to be getting a cleric on the tieam, for fear of breaking the campaign...

Makes an excellent villain though. I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm DMing

[tyckspoon]

hmm. Curious- are you wanting your undead to be useful, or is it just the whole 'controlling an undead horde' thing that attracts you? Because your standard zombies and skeletons aren't anything more than cannon fodder to any serious level 20 threat; if you're looking for power, you'd be better off sinking your control pool into as many zombie/skeleton/ghost/vampire dragons as you can (IIRC, you can make ghost/vampire dragons with Create [greater] Undead, and then use your Rebuke Undead pool to try and command them.)

If you want an undead horde to be effective at high level, there's really only one way to go- an Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimized Bard with Requiem. Nothing'll shape up your undead cannon fodder faster than a +8 Inspire Courage (or, given that much of your army may be relying on weight of fire and natural 20s to hit, Dragonfire Inspiration will give some much needed firepower to the ones that do hit.)

[Coidzor]

^: I enjoyed that post. And I believe agree with it.

Quick bit of math here, taking it as if one of the group makes cleric of Wee Jas (so that he can cast desecrate for me and get his own undead)

Eventually you can just afford an item of desecrate without such a cleric anyway. The first link I posted had a ring that let one cast desecrate 3/day for about 4.5K

I'm thinking I'm not going to be getting a cleric on the tieam, for fear of breaking the campaign...

You're afraid of breaking the campaign when you've already mentioned you plan to turn D&D back into a mass combat game?

[Halae]

If you want an undead horde to be effective at high level, there's really only one way to go- an Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimized Bard with Requiem. Nothing'll shape up your undead cannon fodder faster than a +8 Inspire Courage (or, given that much of your army may be relying on weight of fire and natural 20s to hit, Dragonfire Inspiration will give some much needed firepower to the ones that do hit.)

see, that was just speculation on my part. as far as the mook skeletons go, I was making them suicide bombing chickens, since I can control 4 to a hit die and each one dying would explode for 1d6 negative energy damage in 10 feet. And since they'd likely only have one or two hit points anyway, they could just peck each other down and make each other explode in range of the opposition - devastating to enemy infantry that don't have death ward or similar, and it isn't affected by spell-resistance. That, and deadly Chill would let them be a particular niusance to whatever tried ignoring them, either through damage reduction or similar. Besides, there's nothing quite so humiliating as getting routed by skeletal chickens

that said, I'm going for a much more sane approach to the game - We'll have a home base, so I'm going to leave most of my army as guardians of the keep, for the inevitable siege, and keep about half my undead pool for whatever I come across. being a minionmancer is a lot about taking what the DM gives you

[Trekkin]

You might also want to look into Fell Energy; all undead affected by the spell get a +2 to all numerical bonuses applied by the spell, and that should probably work with Desecrate. That, and Ability Enhancer if you have a transmutation-specialized wizard handy, can equate to a +8 bonus on ability scores for selected undead using Bull's Strength etc.

Incidentally, Desecrate only doubles the per-casting limit on Animate Dead; your control cap doesn't also double.

[Kerghan]

If you could figure out a way to gain unholy toughness (basically acts as a con mod to hp only it uses charisma instead) as a sorcerer build with the lich template, go for it, otherwise, switch to a divine spellcasting class that casts off charisma and take Walker in the Waste. Its frightening when the caster has as much hp as the tank.