Dvati...how do they work?

[Talya]

Reading the entry in Dragon Compendium leaves me with more questions than answers.

Obviously it explicitly says casting a spell requires both Dvati twins to concentrate on the same action, but other than that...

Almost every Dvati feature is a liability rather than an asset. Half the hit points, mind controlling one gets them both, etc. Which leads me to wonder what their assets are? Better "aid another" or flanking bonuses? That's not worth a +1, it's not even worth the lower hit point totals. The only thing I can think of is -- do they actually get extra actions, apart from spellcasting? Can both Dvati simultaneously full attack? Can a Dvati scout have one of them run 10' while the other full attacks with skirmish damage? How do these things actually function?

[Tyndmyr]

Not well. Everything to do with them is either a liability, or is undefined and makes your GMs head hurt. I don't recommend playing them in anything other than a solo game.

I believe both can act, though. So, there's a limited action advantage for melee only. Meh.

[Aemoh87]

The real pain comes in that they take the same feats. So if one takes leadership so does the other. So that means they both have leadership. Take Great Diplomat with it and now you have 4 Cohorts at level six.

[arguskos]

There is no RAW answer for the action economy question of the Dvati. It was never errata'd, and the closest thing there is to an "official" response was from a designer for Paizo who helped in their 3.5 entry for the Dragon Compendium in a thread on Paizo's site who said that the intent was that the Dvati have 1 full round worth of actions between them. This is clearly unplayably terrible.

Really, it's a DM nightmare, and it's recommended you don't bother with the race if you actually *like* your DM.

EDIT: Uh... that's not how they work dude. The character has Leadership. They get the effect once. They get one cohort. Two bodies=/=double effects.

[Talya]

There is no RAW answer for the action economy question of the Dvati. It was never errata'd, and the closest thing there is to an "official" response was from a designer for Paizo who helped in their 3.5 entry for the Dragon Compendium in a thread on Paizo's site who said that the intent was that the Dvati have 1 full round worth of actions between them.

You might be able to pull some cheese with a rogue with multiweapon fighting monster feats out of that, but other than that...

This is clearly unplayably terrible.

Yeah, no kidding.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well if that's the case, then how would you make them playable then? If the ability for both of them to full attack and such in a round worth +1 LA with all the disadvantages?

[FMArthur]

Well, when you have two bodies and no action advantage, the benefits seem a lot like some things I'm told that casters can do with familiars: you have two locations from which to calculate range, line of effect and line of sight. It's probably bad for survival to keep both within 40 feet of each other for AOE spell effects anyway.

Oh, and also reach and AoO area.

[Thurbane]

My reading of their abilities seems to indicate they do get two sets of actions per round, which can be used for anything other than spellcasting...

[FMArthur]

And in that case they are almost strictly better than any normal character. People just sort of stall when asked to optimize that because it really is just anything, but twice. Even a Soulknife would be okay - they'd even sort out their wealth limitation a bit. Twice the Wounding attacks could drop a foe pretty quickly. Two Dungeoncrashers could play pinball. Multiple "save on attack" maneuvers or weapon enhancements would work well.

I'd probably stick them in a specialized ranged-weaponry build to keep them from staying too close together in combat. Maybe that isn't optimal for huge damage potential but you don't want them to die to one Fireball, cause that's embarrassing.

[Talya]

I'd probably stick them in a specialized ranged-weaponry build to keep them from staying too close together in combat. Maybe that isn't optimal for huge damage potential but you don't want them to die to one Fireball, cause that's embarrassing.

They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

[FMArthur]

They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.

[arguskos]

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.

And how if one dies, the other suffers stat damage constantly until it dies or the other is brought back to life. That's kinda, you know, relevant.

[Talya]

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting that they don't share an HP total. They just have a little less than normal, separately.

A fair bit less, depending on class. They make weak barbarians/warblades, with that average 3.25 hit points per hit die. As rogues, though, their 1.75 average hit points per hit die is not as big a drop.

I'd say constitution would be incredibly valuable on them, with each twin getting their full CON bonus.

Assuming one full set of actions for both twins together, a rogue with multiweapon fighting is probably the only somewhat viable possibility, and even that becomes hard to play (movement is difficult.) If you manage a full attack while flanking with yourself, though, the enemy is seriously fracked.

[Amnestic]

A Dragonfire Adept would be a pretty decent choice for a Dvati I think. They're massively focused on CON to begin with, and with two breath weapons with Entangling Exhalation or another battlefield-control addition, they might work quite well.

[nedz]

Do they have to take the same class at each level ?
What if one get level drained ?

I was thinking that something with passive effects might work.
So Marshall, Dragon Shamen, ..., Bard ?

Do you think that identical twins would make a good musical act ?

[Kobold-Bard]

Do SLAs / Eldritch Blast count as spells for Dvati spell limitations?

[FMArthur]

No, but maybe they should. It's really hard to guage what abilities should and should not work. SLAs, Invocations and Psionics should not work, being essentially equivalent to spells, but most certainly do work by the rules as they are written. Martial maneuvers are quite a grey area that would be difficult to pin down one way or the other even trying to guage the RAI on it, since they share the way they are organized and learned with spells but are more comparable in their function to making special attacks via feats.

[Talya]

it's interesting that a regular character is not as limited as a dvati while casting spells. A human, for instance, can cast a quickened spell, and then attack. A Dvati's twin cannot attack --or ultimately do anything at all-- in a round where their other half is casting a spell.

[Thurbane]

A Dragonfire Adept would be a pretty decent choice for a Dvati I think. They're massively focused on CON to begin with, and with two breath weapons with Entangling Exhalation or another battlefield-control addition, they might work quite well.

Binder works fairly well, for similar reasons.

[Typewriter]

My group originally thought that each body got a full round of actions, but I found a post on wizards forum a while back where the creator clarified that the intention was that they had to split their actions between the two bodies. Meaning one could do a single attack and the other could move, both could move as a double move, or you could split the attacks from a full attack up between the two of them(BAB 6 = 1 attacks at +6, the other gets an attack at +1 as a full round attack).

They're my favorite race to play, personally, just because I love the concept.

One Dvati character I created was a mystic theurge with a lot of HP and DR(mineral warrior + DR increasing feats). One body wore spiked mountain plate and had a spiked tower shield, while the other would cast spells like telepathy and false gravity to cause the spiked armor one to 'fall' into opponents.

[Amnestic]

it's interesting that a regular character is not as limited as a dvati while casting spells. A human, for instance, can cast a quickened spell, and then attack. A Dvati's twin cannot attack --or ultimately do anything at all-- in a round where their other half is casting a spell.

The text says:

A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts.

So a single dvati can cast a quickened spell, and the other dvati could take a standard action afterwards...I think?

[Prime32]

If you can manage to turn them into Outsiders with the [Evil] subtype (there are a few ways to pull this off), Fiend of Possession is by far the best use you can make of the dvati. They can possess two things at once, and their hp and equipment don't matter while doing so.

[~Nye~]

As a DM I have managed them,
we had a d'vati Savant, the class is in the dragon compendium. I believe the aid another class feature worked for them being apart but being able to aid the same person in a skill trick made them viable. I've managed d'vati. Just be careful handling your squishies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They get completely destroyed by Power Word: Pain, considering it's mind-affecting and would deal full damage to both. A Mass Whelm spell that hits both twins would actually double-up on damage.

I'd say Crusader would be one of your best options, assuming they would have a shared pool of granted/readied maneuvers and they would be able to act separately when using them. They could use White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers to aid each other, such as Shield Block, and they would each separately get the full benefit of the delayed damage mechanic. The one taking damage could use Stone Power while the other used a Devoted Spirit maneuver to heal him. Constitution should be their highest priority, and I'd give them Craft: Armorsmithing so they could only pay 1/3 the price for armor and shields. They could work together to make something using Aid Another, or they could both make separate checks and finish twice as fast, assuming they're always taking ten to never fail a check.

[SiuiS]

They make awesome rogues for low-level mind games. One guy is talking, steps backwards into the shadows...

... And steps up onto a ledge above you, continuing his monologue of how you petty heroes are no match for the likes of him! <silenced sneak attack with mosquitoes bite from the shadows, guy on the ledge points finger, fighter takes full effect from sneak attack the round after he was hit> see, not even the weakest of my spells fails to pierce your armor!

Seriously y'all. Watch any movie with twins in it, to learn their dirty tricks.

[Darrin]

I was able to track down Talon Dunning, the original designer, and exchanged some email about how he thought they should work in 3.x. (We don't necessarily agree... he seems to think the 1/2 HP thing makes them unplayable, while I consider it more of an annoyance I can work around).

Based on the text in the Dragon Compendium, I think we can establish by RAW that each dvati twin gets its own set of actions:

"These two creatures move and act separately but have a number of restrictions based on their connection."

In particular, the spellcasting restrictions are pretty explicit that each twin has a different set of actions:

"When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts."

In order for the bolded parts to work as stated, each twin would have to have a separate set of actions. Echo Attack also can't work as written unless each twin gets its own move action every round.

[Tyndmyr]

They'll die to one fireball even if you spread them out 300 miles. Kill one, you ultimately kill the other.

This. Combined with the hp split, it's pretty rough. Even melee builds using solid hd classes end up uncomfortably fragile, IMO.

With a caster, this basically ends up being a caster with LA and a lack of hp, since there's no action advantage.


The echo attack ability is mostly worthless. It's highly situational(flanking with yourself on a monster than can hear you), is based on a skill only bards could reasonably have, allows a save, and even if it works...you only get a +1 attack OR ac. Frigging terrible.

Pair link or aid another is slightly better...but you still have the obvious problem of both going into melee close by each other with jack for hp.

If you try to build this into something useful, you need LA buyoff, a way to get lots of con and probably a feat to burn for improved toughness, and then you've just managed to be okish.

[Thurbane]

Dragonborn Dvati Dragonfire Adept with the Slow trait??

[term1nally s1ck]

They make incredible *insert anything except a caster here*.

Twice the actions, twice the AWESOME.

Aside from monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer. Then you just suck twice as much.

Still, a Martial adept can use multiple maneuvers per round, any full-attacking class can get two full attacks, and you can just do some cool things with invocations, Binder abilities, etc.

Plus, twice the threatened area is always awesome.

[Segev]

Since this is a thread on "how they work," I have a few specific questions. If possible, please answer according to their RAW, though additional clarifications are welcome afterwards.

• If a dvati sorcerer casts Mage Armor and Shield, do both bodies benefit, or just the one?
  • Similar question for any self-targeted spell cast by the dvati mage.
  • I will assume that psionics work similarly (e.g. a dvati psywarrior using Vigor and Claws of the Beast), but understand the RAW about it only being spellcasting makes this arguable. Still, clarification is welcome.
• If a dvati is targeted by a cleric casting Cure Light Wounds, do both heal, or does just the body touched?
  • Similar question for buff spells cast by others on the dvati.
• It says, IIRC, that dvati must both take the same feats and same classes at the same levels (as well as learning the same spells, etc.). Is it phrased such that this is "one character" taking "one class," or as two distinct creatures both taking the same class(es) and feat(s)?
  
  • In particular, does a dvati druid get one or two animal companions?
  • Does a wizard get one or two familiars?
  • A pair of dvati taking psicrystal affinity get one or two psicrystals?
  • A paladin duo one or two mounts?
  • What about Leadership and other cohort-grangting feats?
  • Do dvati Kensai get a special sword each, or one between the two?
  • When a dvati duo has any sort of "share spells" ability with animal companion(s) or familiar(s) or psicrystal(s), does their duo-casting of one spell share it with both? (Obviously, if a single pair of dvati only get one animal companion between them, this is self-answered.)
• This may be partially answered by the last question, or may help inform the answer to it: Are dvati one or two creatures?
  
  • If one creature, does that mean they have 4 hands and two heads? This would, for instance, qualify them for Multiattack. It would also have interesting implications for Fusion and Fission.
  • If two creatures, what does this open up to them?

I have two "thought problems" I want to tackle with them, and answers to the above will help.

1) Assuming the most restrictive ruling regarding their shared actions is accurate, what is the most effective things one can do with them?

I am running off the idea in this case that they're able to take Multiattack, which then opens up interesting possibilities with their self-flanking-buddy powers. Without that, the most that seems useful is their ability to threaten multiple squares. But perhaps, depending on how the share spells/powers cast by themselves or by others on them, other odd synnergistic tricks might open up.

2) I am contemplating attempting a fan writeup of a "fixed" version, but I make no promises at this time. Obviously, there are others better at optimization than I who could better balance such things, but knowing where they stand now (or at least, where questions are truly unanswered now) will help in building something functional.