Early Retirement

[acemcjack]

Hello, this is my first topic, though I'm a longtime lurker. :)

My DM has developed his own hybrid RP system which is a mix of 2nd edition and 3rd edition rules, and some homebrew rules he's made up.

One of rules is that there's no XP, but rather the Guild that your class belongs to decides when an adventurer has earned the right to level up, whereupon the player must pay for his training.

Anyway, we've been gaming for some time now, and have been hoping to level up to level 4, but our DM seems to think not all of us are worthy yet, and has the guild give us all kinds of missions which, if we succeed in, will allow us to level up. According to him, although we've finished them to a certain degree of success, apparently we still don't have what it takes.

Last session, he gave us a mission and when we finished it, decided only one of us can level up, and we ended up throwing a dice to determine who it would be. I lost.

This is quite frustrating as I feel my character has done quite a bit and deserves leveling up, but these are the rules, so I'm not going to argue with the DM.

I would like, however, to make this failure to level up reflect on my character's decisions in-game. One thing I thought of doing is having my character retire, seeing how, obviously, he isn't good enough at adventuring to advance. I've accumulated several thousand GP by now, and could just go back home and become a merchant or something, since the risk-to-reward ratio just isn't worth it, it seems.

Obviously, I'm doing this as a sort of threat - if you don't allow me to level up, I won't go along with the adventure.

What do you think?

Thanks.

[HunterOfJello]

It sounds like your DM and group need to have a talk about playstyles and what each person wants to get out of the game.

~

If the DM is interested in a campaign that has heroic characters, but not overly powerful ones, then a system like E6 might be more appropriate than randomly handing out levels. He could then have the characters earn experience for new feats that they qualify for, as normal, while also setting up a pool of free bonus feats. The DM could also give out special abilities like Improved Evasion that the PCs could gain after earning greater prestige within their guild.

As a DM, I've found that handing out hand-picked feats that the less book saavy players likely haven't seen before can be a much great reward than a a few magical items and experience. After questing through 3 kingdoms through dozens of battles and hardships, one of my groups managed to return a young Trumpet Archon to the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia through a portal that was inside the druid grove of a Planar Shephard. (All of this was loosely based off of one of the original adventures on the WotC website.)

At the end of the journey, the PCs got a ton of experience and a pledge of eternal friendship from the parents of the young Trumpet Archon. Each character also received a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds. The Druid got the Exalted Companion feat, the Sorcerer got the Celestial Familiar feat, the Swordsage got Nymph's Kiss feat, and the Rogue (who was CE) got Subduing Strike feat with a warning and promise. He was told that he should avoid the path that he currently walked upon and that if he forsook that path for one of righteousness he would be greatly rewarded.
~

Back on topic, you really need to sit down with the group and the DM and present your issues openly. Tell the DM that you and your character lacks much incentive anymore to continue adventuring in his game if the only method of gaining levels as a character relies upon his momentary whims along with a random dice roll to determines who gets to level up and who doesn't.

Having the DM determine who levels up and doesn't based on his whims is just a bad idea. That's why there are already so many system out there to determine when a character levels up. Some people level up once a month or every other month. Some use experience tables and rigidly follow the DMG rules. Others use the tables for the experience needed to level up and decide at the time how much each encounter is worth. However, each system exists as a standard for both players and DMs to look at and be able to tell at any point in time, how close or far a character is to gaining their next level. No system sounds like a terrible idea in my head and sounds like it isn't working for you either.

[acemcjack]

Thanks for the reply.

I doubt we're going to change the system. I only entered this group a few months ago, without knowing any of the players, and the DM is quite insistent on using his rules, although he still tweaks them as we go.

Also, I didn't mention it, but he does reward us with skills ,abilities and action points along the way, if we do something exceptionally well, but I feel I do deserve to advance considering I've been playing well and contributing to accomplishing the tasks we've been undertaking.

I've talked to the DM before about this, and I don't want to argue with him anymore as this has often ended in bitter arguements. So I'd like to try and solve the problem in-game, or at least point out the flaws I see in the system using a different approach. If it doesn't work out, I may decide to leave the group, but I do want to try and work within the system.

[Triaxx]

Sounds like the dreaded BadDM. I'd jump ship and leave the group entirely. If he's that much of a jerk now, he'll only get worse.

[Jornophelanthas]

It sounds like this DM wants to control the players too much. When he gives ability points, does he also say which ability gets raised? When he gives skill points, does he also dictate which skills get raised?

(e.g. DM: "Congratulations, you get a point of Strength." Player: "But I have no use for that. Can't I get Intelligence instead?" DM: "No, take it or leave it.")

---

However, maybe there are some issues that speak in the DM's favor:

1. How high level are the highest level characters in the guild? Is the Guildmaster level 4, for example? If so, then level 4 is likely the highest point you'll ever reach in the entire campaign.

2. Perhaps he wants to use the next few missions to level up the rest of the party one by one. This may be frustrating for the last one to receive the levelup, but perhaps you could reach some agreements with your fellow players. Things like: the one who got to level 4 first, will go last when going up to 5. Also, don't roll dice. Instead, make sure you agree.

---

Final suggestion:
If your current guild doesn't offer your character enough advancement, can't your character get himself headhunted by a rival guild that offers better opportunities for growth? Play this out with your DM, but don't tip him off beforehand.

For example:
You: On my day off, I visit the guildhall of Guild X.
DM: Why?
You: I just do. I ask to speak with an officer.
DM: The doorman says: "What business do you have with us?"
You: "I was wondering if you were hiring?"
DM/Doorman: "No, get lost!"

Repeat this with every available guild, until you actually get to talk with someone important.

DM/Officer: "Why would you want to work for us?"
You: "I currently work for Guild Y, and they just don't reward me well enough, even though I always get the job done."
DM/Officer: "Now why would we hire you?"
You: "Like I said, I get the job done. I was part of [recent successful mission], and [other mission]. All for Guild Y, and they don't seem to appreciate my efforts, because they never promote me. I'll work for you guys if you offer me decent rewards and the opportunity to train my skills."
DM/Officer: "You'll hear from us."

The point is not to actually get hired by another guild (although it would be a nice way to retire the character), but to make the DM aware that your character needs a reason to stay with his guild.

[acemcjack]

Well, he isn't a bad DM, and he's not a jerk, he's just a little tough, that's all.

As for the rewards, he lets you pick whatever ability or skill you wish, or at the most, places some restriction which still leaves you with enough choice.

It doesn't seem to be an issue of keeping us underpowered, and this specific guild could definitely level us up to the next level. The issue here, is that he doesn't think we've earned it.

As HunterOfJello pointed out, there are no set rules for level advancing, rather, it's entirely at the DM's discretion. That's why I want to show him that if he doesn't think we're worthy of advancing, then maybe our character's aren't cut out for this life, since the stakes are too high for the rewards to excuse them.

I really don't want to make this topic an issue of whether my DM's a bad DM and I should quit this group. I'm just looking for ideas how to point out my character's frustration in-game.

[Dreadn4ught]

DM/Officer: "Why would you want to work for us?"
You: "I currently work for Guild Y, and they just don't reward me well enough, even though I always get the job done."
DM/Officer: "Now why would we hire you?"
You: "Like I said, I get the job done. I was part of [recent successful mission], and [other mission]. All for Guild Y, and they don't seem to appreciate my efforts, because they never promote me. I'll work for you guys if you offer me decent rewards and the opportunity to train my skills."
DM/Officer: "You'll hear from us."

One word: GENIUS!

Dropping subtle hints is a good way of doing ANYTHING!

My thoughts: You know, being in this forest doing random encounters until level 18 might not be such a good idea...

My characters voice: "Were we seriously assigned to go through this ENTIRE forest?!"

[Tyger]

I think that your question is a good one, but one that is ultimately not going to solve the issue. This isn't an in character issue, its an issue that is completely under the control of the DM, out of character.

The best thing to do is what has been suggested above, sit down with the DM out of character and let him know that you are frustrated, that you don't think its fair, and that this style of leveling up is not conducive to a fun game for you. Now, if the other players all agree with the DM, and they like this style, then you'll have some choices to make - you noted that you were a newcomer to the group. If, however, they side with your view or express at least similar frustrations, then your DM may have to re-evaluate his stance on this.

I for one could not play under those circumstances. Where who levels up is determined by a roll of the die? That would drive me mad in a very short amount of time.

Your DM may have very valid and reasonable reasons for doing it this way. All of that doesn't matter though if the group isn't having fun. So that's why this is an OOC issue. Trying to solve it IC is just going to, in my experience, frustrate everyone involved.

[acemcjack]

For example:
You: On my day off, I visit the guildhall of Guild X.
DM: Why?
You: I just do. I ask to speak with an officer.
DM: The doorman says: "What business do you have with us?"
You: "I was wondering if you were hiring?"
DM/Doorman: "No, get lost!"

Repeat this with every available guild, until you actually get to talk with someone important.

DM/Officer: "Why would you want to work for us?"
You: "I currently work for Guild Y, and they just don't reward me well enough, even though I always get the job done."
DM/Officer: "Now why would we hire you?"
You: "Like I said, I get the job done. I was part of [recent successful mission], and [other mission]. All for Guild Y, and they don't seem to appreciate my efforts, because they never promote me. I'll work for you guys if you offer me decent rewards and the opportunity to train my skills."
DM/Officer: "You'll hear from us."

The point is not to actually get hired by another guild (although it would be a nice way to retire the character), but to make the DM aware that your character needs a reason to stay with his guild.

I like this idea, and I might try it. I could also start rumors in town saying that my guild makes promises it has no intention of living up to. We'll see.

I really don't want to sit down and talk to the DM about it, as we've been through this before.

I thank you all for your suggestions.

[Comet]

Obviously, I'm doing this as a sort of threat - if you don't allow me to level up, I won't go along with the adventure.

Whoah. When you phrase it like that, it sounds like a hilariously bad idea.

I do understand why you're doing this, and even aprove, to an extent.
Just make sure that the GM and everyone else understand that this is not you being passive agressive to them, but rather exploring the implications of the setting in a way that makes sense to you.

Something like an out of character "hey guys, I've been thinking. Would it be cool if my character went through a phase of feeling like the adventurer's life is not for him? I've been thinking that he might retire, for a time, to see what life outside the Guild would be like. We've been having a hard time leveling up lately, and I think stuff like that would reflect in my character's attitudes towards the Guild."

I repeat: give them a warning out of character and make sure that this is not just you being difficult because the mean GM didn't give you your shiny toys.

If that doesn't work for you, talk to the GM again and express your problem. In either case, some OOC communication needs to happen or someone will get offended really quick.

[Tyger]

I really don't want to sit down and talk to the DM about it, as we've been through this before.

Whoa, so your DM knows that this is an issue for you? What about the other players?

I know it seems like we're beating a dead horse here, but if the DM knows it is a problem OOC, what do you hope to gain by making it an IC issue? If he knows that you are unsatisfied, what leads you to believe that having your character do something which is not within his plans will be any more successful?

[Comet]

Oh, and another thing I thought of just now:

If you go through with this plan, and the GM says "okay, you're now a merchant in a small village", what are you going to do then?

Roleplay your mundane life in painful detail, forcing everyone else at the table to sit still and wait for their turn to go on adventures and do stuff that is actually interesting? Just fade into the background, making the game boring for you?

All I'm saying is that you should think this through in a way that won't make the game worse for everyone else. If you can become a merchant and interact with the other player characters consistently and meaningfully, then more power to you. That sounds like an awesome story, actually.

But if you're just going to stick your head into the ground and go 'la la la I can't hear you' when the GM mentions the word adventure, you're obviously just slowing the game down.

It's a group activity. Consider the whole group, not just you vs. the GM.

[acemcjack]

Whoah. When you phrase it like that, it sounds like a hilariously bad idea.

I do understand why you're doing this, and even aprove, to an extent.
Just make sure that the GM and everyone else understand that this is not you being passive agressive to them, but rather exploring the implications of the setting in a way that makes sense to you.

Something like an out of character "hey guys, I've been thinking. Would it be cool if my character went through a phase of feeling like the adventurer's life is not for him? I've been thinking that he might retire, for a time, to see what life outside the Guild would be like. We've been having a hard time leveling up lately, and I think stuff like that would reflect in my character's attitudes towards the Guild."

I repeat: give them a warning out of character and make sure that this is not just you being difficult because the mean GM didn't give you your shiny toys.

If that doesn't work for you, talk to the GM again and express your problem. In either case, some OOC communication needs to happen or someone will get offended really quick.

That's a good idea. I don't want to antagonize the DM or the players by doing this, just to point out the implications of it being so difficult to level up in this system - meaning if the rewards are too small, it might not be worth the risks.

[acemcjack]

Oh, and another thing I thought of just now:

If you go through with this plan, and the GM says "okay, you're now a merchant in a small village", what are you going to do then?

Roleplay your mundane life in painful detail, forcing everyone else at the table to sit still and wait for their turn to go on adventures and do stuff that is actually interesting? Just fade into the background, making the game boring for you?

All I'm saying is that you should think this through in a way that won't make the game worse for everyone else. If you can become a merchant and interact with the other player characters consistently and meaningfully, then more power to you. That sounds like an awesome story, actually.

But if you're just going to stick your head into the ground and go 'la la la I can't hear you' when the GM mentions the word adventure, you're obviously just slowing the game down.

It's a group activity. Consider the whole group, not just you vs. the GM.

You're absolutely right. As I said, I don't want to antagonize anyone. I'm going to see what happens next session, and then I'll decide how to act.

Thanks for the help!

[NichG]

It seems to me that the problem here (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that in character, the character is being constantly told 'no, you don't have what it takes, and I'm reneging on the previous promise to let you advance'.

If it were just a campaign where the DM decided OOC when the party levels, and did so rarely, there'd probably be some griping from people who like faster advancement but it wouldn't seem so bad. Its not the character's fault in that case, its just that advancement is slow.

But by making it an in-character issue, the DM is demoralizing the members of the party.

[Tyndmyr]

I doubt we're going to change the system. I only entered this group a few months ago, without knowing any of the players, and the DM is quite insistent on using his rules, although he still tweaks them as we go.

There's nothing wrong with playtesting custom rules...but you've got to have willing participants for such things.

Plus, if the rules keep changing as you go, it can be a bit annoying at times.

I'd personally jump ship. I don't even see how a guild deciding when you level up makes sense.

[acemcjack]

It seems to me that the problem here (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that in character, the character is being constantly told 'no, you don't have what it takes, and I'm reneging on the previous promise to let you advance'.

If it were just a campaign where the DM decided OOC when the party levels, and did so rarely, there'd probably be some griping from people who like faster advancement but it wouldn't seem so bad. Its not the character's fault in that case, its just that advancement is slow.

But by making it an in-character issue, the DM is demoralizing the members of the party.

I think you've pretty much nailed it.

I guess it would be different if we used some sort of XP system, and he decided to cut the XP down to lower the advancement. They way it is now, you undertake a task, accomplish it, but because you missed something, only one of the players gets to level up - and that's determined by the dice. I mean, if you get 0 points for effort, what's the point in trying, when I can just sit back and let someone else work?

[acemcjack]

There's nothing wrong with playtesting custom rules...but you've got to have willing participants for such things.

Plus, if the rules keep changing as you go, it can be a bit annoying at times.

I'd personally jump ship. I don't even see how a guild deciding when you level up makes sense.

I don't want to jump ship just yet, although it is indeed frustrating at times.

I like the group, and I like the DM's style, even if I'm not too keen on the rules he's made.

I guess he sees leveling up as advancing grades in school. You need to take exams pass them in order to advance to the next level. It sort of makes sense, I think, but I don't particularly like the grading method...

[Jothki]

How Lawful and Good is your character? If he's not particuarly lawful, start searching for means of advancement outside of what's been approved by the guild. If he's not particularly good, start adjusting his actions towards solely what will impress his superiors, instead of what will help the group.

If he's Chaotic AND Evil, start plotting revenge against everyone in the guild who's holding him back.

[Jornophelanthas]

Also, don't roll a die to decide who gets advancement. Have the PCs discuss in character who deserves it most, and have them decide this.

The DM can't overrule this, unless he has the Guildmaster decide (at random) who gets the advancement. And if this is so, the players should be wondering why they work for this guy.

[Cogidubnus]

You know, I quite like the idea of refluffing experience and calling it Guild Prestige instead. But rather than having it be determined as your DM has, I'd have it be just like XP in that each mission gets you a fair share, and certain degrees of success get you bonus XP, just not called that.

[Fortuna]

Speaking here purely of the rules system involved, I find it interesting that your DM hands out smaller awards and levels. One thing that I would suggest is that you ask him why not break the levels down into the smaller awards that they would contain. The big problem with handing out levels is that they're lump sums, and big lump sums to boot. Handing out a bonus feat or a spell slot at a time might make more sense.

[acemcjack]

Speaking here purely of the rules system involved, I find it interesting that your DM hands out smaller awards and levels. One thing that I would suggest is that you ask him why not break the levels down into the smaller awards that they would contain. The big problem with handing out levels is that they're lump sums, and big lump sums to boot. Handing out a bonus feat or a spell slot at a time might make more sense.

That's not a bad idea at all, but it might make things difficult to keep track of.

As for rolling dice, I wasn't around when they did that this time. I had thought we would get to choose who levels up.

Thanks for all the ideas!