How to defend against optimized charge?

[Firechanter]

Some players relish in optimizing charger builds that can dish out over 1000 damage in the first round. Question is, what do you do if you (as PC) have to fight _against_ such a brute?

Let's say you have to fight a bunch of highlevel Orcs. You don't know it, but you have to expect one of them might have pulled all the registers: Frenzied Berserker, Pounce, Shock Trooper, the works. He is stronger than a Tarrasque and can dish out 5 attacks on a charge. In short, if you gets in range he'd pummel you into the middle of next century. He also a lot of HP of course.

If you know beforehand _who_ it is, and can act before he gets near you, of course your casters will send some Will saves his way which will hopefully suffice.
I guess you can also ready an action to simply evade a charge, if you have the room or the gear (Dimension Stride boots or somesuch).

Normally I'd take a Reach weapon and try to trip a charger so he kisses the gravel before he can attack, but if you consider a potential Strength score over 50 when you only have 30 kinda rules that out.

Any other tricks that help against a charger when you really, definitely, don't want to risk getting hit for 800 damage? Particularly if there are like 10 charging attackers at a time, and you don't know which is the heavy hitter?

[gbprime]

I like having someone in the group (could even be a cohort) ready an action to use his Ring of the Forcewall against a charging opponent. For only 5100gp, this ring gives you the awesome lulz of stopping a charging opponent and getting to watch them slam headfirst into an invisible wall.

It's got other great uses as well, but the invisible wall face plant is the funniest.

[Gnaeus]

Battlefield control can be done with Trip, or with Stand Still. Stand Still is a reflex save, not a str check. Should work.

Be invisible.

Get them to them charge an illusion of you.

Abrupt Jaunt.

Blockers. Skeletons/zombies, constructs, villagers, animals, whatever.

Adventure via astral projection.

As Hyfigh says, this question is unanswerable without more information. Levels. Party makeup. Books.

[Hyfigh]

It all depends on what you are.

Magic helps because they can use miss chances to start negating the ability to actually hit you. Stuff like Mirror Image, Blur/displacement, Blink, etc.

Most chargers don't have great saves and, as such, can be hit with debilitating spells (bestow curse, slow, blind effects, solid fog, etc.).

The feat Elusive Target would be another great choice. It's one of those niche feats that allows the user to negate power attack from the attacker. This doesn't completely stop the attacker, but greatly reduces his damage.

There are also feats and class features that allow you to side step charges.

A combination of these things would be best.

Edit: Almost forgot line-of-sight eliminators. Walls are wonderful. Even a Warlock with Wall of Gloom can put a real hinderence on a charger (anyone that needs line of sight, really). Even Silent Image walls can help with this issue.

[Caliphbubba]

Items and effects that give miss chances seem to be a valid defense.

[DEMON]

Level 1 Setting Sun Maneuver (Counter) - Counter Charge (Tome of Battle).
Available to Swordsage, or any other 2nd level character thanks to the Martial Study feat.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Fly

[blackjack217]

I like having someone in the group (could even be a cohort) ready an action to use his Ring of the Forcewall against a charging opponent. For only 5100gp, this ring gives you the awesome lulz of stopping a charging opponent and getting to watch them slam headfirst into an invisible wall.

It's got other great uses as well, but the invisible wall face plant is the funniest.

No flying dragon faceplant is the funniest. The look of horror on the DM makes me feel warm and fuzzy. If you are the wizard being polymorphed into the familiar is a good defense. If you want a build I would go with a cleric. Stack miss chances and other defenses and ready a maximized end to strife. 600 untyped elemental damage in one standard action, more metamagic shenanigans are possible of course. You might want to prepare yourself for several minuets of rules debate though.

[Keld Denar]

Robilar's Gambit + Elusive Target

Every time he swings at you, you get an AoO. Instead of taking the AoO, you can get a 5' step. Since a charge ends at the first space your foe can reach you, a simple 5' step will get you out of harms way in a heart beat.

[arguskos]

Well, depending on your reading of the Cometary Collision feat, you can shut them down completely with it. It lets you reactively charge into a charging opponent, which is glorious because it says "your foe loses the benefits of charging (but not the penalties)". If you read that as negating everything they get from charging (a fair reading IMO), they then suddenly are completely shut off. No Pounce (benefit), not Shock Trooper (applies on the charge only), nothin'. They do still get to attack you, but likely, it's not gonna be anywhere near as strong an attack.

If your DM instead rules that all they lose is the +2 to attacks, the feat is trash. I'd clear this one with the DM.

[Curmudgeon]

Charge has a bunch of requirements, so if you can foil even one of them you're good.

1. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
2. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
3. Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
4. If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

If someone is too close they can't charge. (They'll be able to make a full attack, but won't get any charge enhancements their optimization has lined up.)

Any obstacle will thwart a charge. You can step to interpose a tree or rock, or even a patch of muddy ground, between you and the charger.

You can summon a creature to provide soft cover for you and make the charger waste their effort on a throwaway opponent.

Not being seen is probably the easiest option. Invisibility or an adequate Hide frustrates chargers quite handily.

[NichG]

Well, you could always use anti-rocket-tag defenses like Death Pact, Contingent Dim Door, Indomitability, Abrubt Jaunt, Wings of Cover, Timeless Body, ... If their big thing is the first round of damage, it'll give you a fighting chance at least. Spells like Empyreal Ecstasy will cut the damage by half, which might make it survivable when layered with other tricks. If its an extremely high-op game, then Delay Death, Starmantle, and other such damage/attack immunity shenanigans might be reasonable. If they're wielding a metal weapon, Greater Ironguard is amusing.

[FMArthur]

Unprepared chargers really do fall flat pretty quickly when you show them just how restrictive their line-of-effect needs to be. Airborne chargers and people with the Nimble Charge skill trick are a little tougher to dissuade by mere positioning.

[Quietus]

Get a reach weapon, combat reflexes, and Hold the Line (CW). Pair up with Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. Finish off with Robilar's Gambit to produce a "standard" AoO based build.

They charge, you get an AoO for them charging. Activate Dodge and Robilar's Gambit (you need to have an action for these, which an AoO grants). Elusive Target negates all that power attack bonus damage, which is the real threat, not merely the strength. It'll hurt a lot less, and every swing they take, you get to take one back. Works best with a mix of Fighter (for the feats, this one's pretty hungry) and Shadow Hand, for a dex-based build.

If you get to go first (high dex, remember!), then you can ready an attack vs. charges - using a longspear or ranseur means double damage on that attack.

For extra bonus rules lawyering, point out that Elusive Target specifically calls out that they take "Their normal penalty on attack rolls", despite losing the Power Attack bonus. Insist that this means they either can't take the penalty off their AC, or that they take penalties to both.

[Firechanter]

Haha, I love the mental image of a berserker smacking full force into an invisible wall. XD Awesome.

Thanks for all the fast input!

What are we? Well, let's say for this purpose, a non-caster, generalist melee character. Also, let's say we don't want to dedicate more than a single feat towards charge-denial.
The party as a whole would include the usual niches: a Tank, a Bruiser, a Wizard (more batman than blaster), a Cleric, a Rogue-type.

Fly is an obvious choice, but ofc the enemy may have Fly as well.

Anything that relies on an opposed Strength check is out, because that charger twink is going to have much higher Str than us.
I'd also put Counter Charge in that area; though you can elect to oppose your Dex checks, that's still not a very surefire way due to the randomness of D20 ability checks.

Elusive Target looks good as such, the problem is that it's not one but three feats, Dodge and Mobility are horrible choices.

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?

Stand Still also might be an option, will look into it.

[Keld Denar]

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?

Yes, as I said earlier, a single 5' step will foil the whole charge. Charging specifically states that you have to move to the first square you can reach your foe. Your movement ends there. So, they charge, get to the square, and swing. When they swing, they provoke, per Robilar's Gambit. When they provoke, you take your 5' step and gtfo 5' back. Since you were just barely in their maximum reach, you are now just out of their maximum reach. Baring some shanananananananananananananigans like the bracers that give you +5' reach as a swift action, you are now safe.

[Curmudgeon]

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?

If the charger can still reach you from any position on their straight line path, the fact that you've moved 5' won't matter: you'll still get hit. So that counter only works when the charger is forced to make their straight line approach off to one side of you for some reason, and you could get out of their reach by moving 5' in the other direction. Whether the feat helps you at all is highly situational, so that generally means you'd be better off instead choosing another feat you can use more reliably.

[Yukitsu]

Robilar's Gambit + Elusive Target

Every time he swings at you, you get an AoO. Instead of taking the AoO, you can get a 5' step. Since a charge ends at the first space your foe can reach you, a simple 5' step will get you out of harms way in a heart beat.

Similar to this, I just ready actions to take a 5 foot step back when I'm in the open vs. cav. or other suspected chargers.

Edit: Saying "batta swing!" whenever you do this is recommended.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, as I said earlier, a single 5' step will foil the whole charge. Charging specifically states that you have to move to the first square you can reach your foe. Your movement ends there. So, they charge, get to the square, and swing. When they swing, they provoke, per Robilar's Gambit.

That's all legal. But Robilar's Gambit gambit triggers your AoO (which Elusive Target converts to a 5' step) after they finish their charge attack.

Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.

So all you've done is taken a 5' step out of their reach after their full pounce attack has thrashed you.

When they provoke, you take your 5' step and gtfo 5' back.

Nope. Unlike most AoOs, the one from Robilar's Gambit doesn't happen at the time of provocation.

Since you were just barely in their maximum reach, you are now just out of their maximum reach. Baring some shanananananananananananananigans like the bracers that give you +5' reach as a swift action, you are now safe.

You've not safe, and you might already be dead.

[Ernir]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?

More generally, battlefield control. The charge mechanic is, as Curmudgeon pointed out, very fragile. Almost any Conjuration (creation) spell has the potential to become a wrench in its works.

[Firechanter]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.

Another Question:
Think setting a weapon against a charge. Can that be combined with ToB maneuvers like, ideally, Diamond Nightmare Blade? And if so, are the multipliers (x4 and x2) stacked or multiplied, i.e. x5 or x8? With a x8 multiplier, you could inflict around 500 damage (against a Shock Trooper) even if the weapon is a cheap spear with just an ad-hoc GMW buff on it. (If you don't even have time to GMW it, the output would be reduced to around 300; still that might be enough to one-shot the charger.

[FMArthur]

There's also Cometary Collision, which is an awesomely-named feat that merely lets you ready an action to interrupt an enemy's charge at you or your allies at any point on the charge with your own charge. They can still complete their charge and can even change their target to you when you're done, so you better trip, grapple or kill them. Since charging is a full-round action, they can't even do anything else on their turn if you prevent them from finishing their charge this way, not even attack you from prone.

[Quietus]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.

Another Question:
Think setting a weapon against a charge. Can that be combined with ToB maneuvers like, ideally, Diamond Nightmare Blade? And if so, are the multipliers (x4 and x2) stacked or multiplied, i.e. x5 or x8? With a x8 multiplier, you could inflict around 500 damage (against a Shock Trooper) even if the weapon is a cheap spear with just an ad-hoc GMW buff on it. (If you don't even have time to GMW it, the output would be reduced to around 300; still that might be enough to one-shot the charger.

It'd be x5, because of D&D math, but unfortunately readying a spear against a charge is a separate standard action than readying to Diamond Nightmare Blade. Readied vs. charge can't be combined with a maneuver. A boost, on the other hand..

On 5' steps and AoO's : Hold the Line (prereq : combat reflexes) makes them provoke when they enter a square you threaten while charging, so it triggers before they attack. Combined with Elusive Target, this would let you 5' step out of the way. And technically, by a strict RAW reading, a charger must attack something directly in a line from where they start; 5' stepping off to the side, or back and to the side, would break this line, and break the charge. However, I know that not one of the DMs I've played under would rule that way.

::Edit:: Not Elusive Target. That other dodge one.

[The Glyphstone]

So Robiliar's gambit won't work, but any Reach weapon will, or any weapon at all and the Hold The Line feat.

[FMArthur]

So Robiliar's gambit won't work, but any Reach weapon will, or any weapon at all and the Hold The Line feat.

Can't they charge you with their own reach weapon?

[Cyrion]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?

More generally, battlefield control. The charge mechanic is, as Curmudgeon pointed out, very fragile. Almost any Conjuration (creation) spell has the potential to become a wrench in its works.

You may be thinking about Blockade from Complete Scoundrel- it conjures a 5' block of wood. However, it's a swift action, not an immediate action.

[Ganurath]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?

Blockade, Complete... Scoundrel, I believe. If not, then Complete Adventurer. Either way, though, not the best option of a melee generalist.

My recommendation is Martial Study for either Counter Charge, or Mighty Throw if you can consistently get the initiative to ready an action. Strength checks may be nightmarish here, but opposed Dexterity puts the ball in your court. Or, a level dip in Swordsage to pick up all sorts of options. Nothing says "screw uberchargers" like Setting Sun Style.

[Curmudgeon]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.

It depends on exactly what the situation is. Robilar's Gambit is clear; that 5' step can only happen after the charger's attack is finished. So that's useless.

A readied action to make a 5' step has different rules.

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

If your readied action interrupts the charge attack, then the charger hasn't yet attacked. If you step 5' then there are two possibilities:

• You've made it impossible for the charger to reach you. You could step behind difficult terrain, exceed their maximum charge distance, or move far enough to the side of their straight line path to be unreachable.
• You haven't become unreachable, and the charger continues their charge and hits you.

I think some of the confusion on this matter comes from people assuming the charge movement and charge attack are separate actions; they are not. A charge is a special full-round action, and continuing the charge action continues all of it, including extra movement as required. There's no "declaring" of the attack point when you start a charge; it's always the closest space from which you can attack ─ even if that spot changes during the charge.

[MightyPirate]

Ubercharger can't ubercharge you if you're in his grill. Charge 'em first.

That'd be my approach if I was playing a melee character geared towards this sort of thing. Other than that I like conjuration as said repeatedly before, maaaybe some evocation force stuff.

[TheCountAlucard]

Unseen Servant should do the trick. "Stand in front of me" is a viable tactic, and while it'll almost certainly be destroyed in one hit, the simple fact is that it'll break the charge by dint of being in the way, and the charger won't see it, and thus end up wasting his charge.