War in a Fantasy Setting

[Curious]

You all know it; war. It is the history of the human race, the omnipresent ring of conflict that defines us, and our past. But in our world, war has grown with us, developing it's own lethality as we ourselves changed. This is far, far different from the assumed situation of most fantasy realms, in which mighty wizards and servants of the gods might battle with heaving monstrosities from the depths of the seas or outer planes, calling upon unnatural powers to aid them. How would war, and by extension the history of the world, be affected by such casual power wielded in the hands of greedy mortals? Would armies of men be able to compare to the ravening beasts of the night or the arcane power of a fireball? Or would they be forced to develop new tactics to deal with these awesome foes? How would wars be fought in a world of wizards and dragons?

While on the subject, let us assume that true nations with real armies were formed. How would they utilize magic in organized battle, or to develop their infrastructure? Would magical items become the norm for a soldier of a powerful nation, or would they be reserved for the elite?


Just an interesting topic, hoping to spark discussion.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Cold War
If a lvl20 Wizard wipes a city of a neighboring country they get their high-powered forces to wipe the aggressive country. You would end up with massive armies escorted by powerful Wizards. If the armies are attacked by another powerful Wizard the escort Wizard can counter it and go into a Wizard Fight and let the Armies take care of themselves.
When Demons can be killed by Adventurers you know they will take lots of precautions to NOT have high-level adventurers come knocking.

[Welknair]

Ah! I've been actually running a war campaign for a bit! My first tip: Get Heroes of Battle, which specializes on the subject. Lightning Ballista=Do want. It's important for any army to have magical support, but casters are busy and expensive. Warmages from Complete Arcane are nice, given you have the GP to fund war colleges. You have your standard foot soldiers and cavalry still, but now your covert-ops group can teleport and go invisible. Everyone is scrying on everyone, so Nondetection is used by most forces. Then there's the matter of air support... a nice quote from Heroes of Battle: "Giant eagles bearing boulders... Make life tough for enemy soldiers". Air control is important. If you can, try to convince local dragons to aid you free of charge. This is unlikely, but worth a shot. Dragon support is quite important, especially if you can get some qualified Dragon Riders.

My two cp.

Edit: This is all assuming no Epic-Levels on either side. If you're epic level, you don't need an army.

[Lord Raziere]

for the purposes of the discussion I'd prefer if we leave out wizard cheese.

how I'd imagine war would really be conducted is that half the wizards they have would be nocturnal and the other half diurnal, cause of how the system is set up.

also, warforged would make an appearance as well as various elementals and things likes grease and fireball used at chokepoints while explosive runes are put on all the doors so that the enemy would trigger them, people would also have to use summon monster so that there is a constant stream of monsters being banished and summoned instead of summoning them all at once.

and necromancers? meh. their zombies wouldn't be as useful as one would think they would be more valued to cause plagues. magical disease warfare much more deadly than mere zombification and much more effective.

I'm also guessing that wizards would eventually use their magic to make an army of super-intelligent life forms and raise them to like magic so as to create an army of super-soldier wizards to defeat all opposition. magical genetic engineering.

[Welknair]

I'm also guessing that wizards would eventually use their magic to make an army of super-intelligent life forms and raise them to like magic so as to create an army of super-soldier wizards to defeat all opposition. magical genetic engineering.

...


I have stats for this.

[Privateer]

It depends on your assumptions. If your world has a large percentage of the population as casters, it'd be very different than if the magic users were a tiny fraction. If you think high level characters are common, it's one thing, if you think a lvl11 is someone absolutely extraordinary, that's another.

The problem with magic is that it's expensive compared to mundane weapons and tactics. Take a wand of magic missile. It's 750gp, which is 50-100 weeks pay for a professional. At the same time you can outfit 5-10 warriors quite well for this money and they'd swarm the single wand-weilder easily.

It's as if in our world a 50-round box of 9mm bullets cost $25,000-$50,000 instead of $20. We definitely would have mostly sword-weilding armies still if that was the case.

This huge difference in price of magic vs mundane suggests that spellcasters are quite rare, even at low levels. This means that majority of armies would still be medieval-style with some magically equipped small adventurer parties for special ops.

[DrizztFan24]

magical genetic engineering.

Displacer-Blink-AMF Dogs. Anti-finger-waggler groups made of up entirely intelligent magical beasts.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Displacer-Blink-AMF Dogs. Anti-finger-waggler groups made of up entirely intelligent magical beasts.

And now I know what to throw at my players next time they start using AMF: Yes Wizard Cheese

[Lord Raziere]

It depends on your assumptions. If your world has a large percentage of the population as casters, it'd be very different than if the magic users were a tiny fraction. If you think high level characters are common, it's one thing, if you think a lvl11 is someone absolutely extraordinary, that's another.

The problem with magic is that it's expensive compared to mundane weapons and tactics. Take a wand of magic missile. It's 750gp, which is 50-100 weeks pay for a professional. At the same time you can outfit 5-10 warriors quite well for this money and they'd swarm the single wand-weilder easily.

It's as if in our world a 50-round box of 9mm bullets cost $25,000-$50,000 instead of $20. We definitely would have mostly sword-weilding armies still if that was the case.

This huge difference in price of magic vs mundane suggests that spellcasters are quite rare, even at low levels. This means that majority of armies would still be medieval-style with some magically equipped small adventurer parties for special ops.

true, until the super-smart wizard race gets cooked up, then all that doesn't matter one whit cause you'll have an entire race of godly wizard batmen forging an unbeatable empire out of mechanics cheese.

[Nigel the Hobo]

All I could think off when reading the OP was:

"War. War never changes."

[kieza]

I'm thinking that, in a moderately developed magical world, in which mages are relatively common but there aren't a lot of level 20 wizards, you'd have a cold war: the major powers don't declare war on each other, because even a mid-level wizard and a few other PC-style individuals can wreak havoc. But they might fight through proxies: everybody has a bunch of minor client states, and you settle international disputes by handing your clients a bunch of fancy gear (magic items, doomsday weapons, regular old equipment) and sending them to invade the enemy's client states. Or they could use adventurers, and send them to kill the enemy's adventurers...

[Amnestic]

All I could think off when reading the OP was:

"War. War never changes."

Oh sure, you might think that but...

Spoiler

Show

War...has changed.

[snikrept]

Assuming a world where only a small fraction of the population has magic powers:

Any warlord who wasn't himself a wizard would have whole warehouses full of artifacts that can project antimagic fields. Hell, they' have artificers imbuing arrows and trebuchet shot with it. Also, their strongholds' materials-by-mass graphs would show a nontrivial amount of lead sheeting.

And nooooooobody would trust a wizard. Wizards would be hunted down in the same way that a man who walks around with a nuclear warhead or a can of smallpox in his briefcase would be hunted down in the real world.

Survivors would probably be found either off the grid in some area not policed by any nation, or else they'd be a dictator themselves (or the pet of one).

[Calmar]

I think a fantasy setting inspired by the middle-ages or antiquity only works if high level casters are both very rare and reclusive. Otherwise spellcasters are the only feasible troops and everyone else is about as useful as tanks and planes in a mecha anime.

[drakir_nosslin]

I think that it would look more like today's battlefields, with small tactical units of infantry moving around the area, trying to take out individual targets. Large formations will be targeted by the first caster that comes around, so those probably won't be used.

Summoned creatures with lots of HP can be used as tanks, smashing through enemy lines, leading way for weaker troops with more damage output.

Air support will be vital, as will scrying. Casters will be the most desired unit, but also the most expensive, lots of resources will go into protecting them, and trying to either convert or kill the opposing casters.

The types of castles that were used during the medieval period won't be effective, too easy to just airdrop a whole unit in the courtyard.

[Morty]

In order to answer this question with anything close to accuracy, we must first ask another one: what fantasy setting?
War will look entirely different in D&D, where magic and monsters are abundant than in a low-powered, low-magic and generally low fantasy settings where they're more scarce, less potent - or much more importantly, less practical - or both. Heck, it can differ wildly between various D&D settings.
Personally, I prefer fantasy warfare close to that in dark ages, middle ages, renaissance or whatever period the setting most resembles. Supernatural elements should be present, but not dominating. Magic would be used for communication, siege warfare and first aid.

[Ravens_cry]

Those things still make dramatic changes. Many sieges ended because of disease in either the besieged or the besieging. Healing magic could alleviate that threat, as well as keep forces fighting fresh by, well, healing them. Relatively low level spells allow the creation of food and water. The whole idea of a siege is starving someone out as much as it is taking the castle through direct assault. This is no longer an option if such magic is available. Communications magic is also a game changer. If the besieged can't repulse the enemy directly, they can contact allies who can come to their aid. A dimension door spell, not to mention teleport, would allow the VIP's to escape a siege with ease, again negating the tactics usefulness.
Of course, it doesn't all help the defender. Spells like stone shape make breaking through the walls potentially trivial, and dimension door could insert a strike force in the heart of the castle with ease if the plans were know, which could be communicated by spies with various communications magic, and still might be risked nonetheless.
In short, the Fantasy warfare would be very different to say the least, even if magic were only "used for communication, siege warfare and first aid."

[Curious]

The fantasy realm I am imagining is one of high magic, where high level characters and awesome spells are, if not readily at hand, obtainable. I suppose you could think of the question as; do Ebberon or the Iron Kingdoms have it right? Is some kind of magical or theurgical revolution imminent in every fantastic world? Or is that merely a contrivince?

[Rumpus]

Depends on how common you assume magic to be, and what level your average caster is. Us trying to imagine gods going to war is like aboriginal tribesmen trying to imagine WWII: we just don't have the mental vocabulary to imagine it. But here's my best shot.

Most spells in D&D are optimized for adventurers. Casters who expect to be facing masses of soldiers would probably have a much different spell list, probably specializing in spells that produce smaller effects for a much larger group. For example, the standard fireball is probably five times as big, but does 1/5 the damage. Bulls Strength only gives +1 STR, but affects an entire company. Things like that.

If casters are high-level and common, common soldiery are irrelevant. They will inevitably wind up playing rocket tag and wiping each other out, possibly taking out most of civilization in the progress. Casters are the equivalent of nuclear weapons by the 80s.

If casters are high-level but rare, they are incredibly valuable resource on each side, conserving their power for a knockout punch and doing their best to hide out to avoid scry-and-die attacks from the other side. Casters are the equivalent of nuclear weapons in submarines in the 50s.

Common low-level casters will leave war looking a lot like today. Casters in this situation are like machine-guns: able to kill lots of people but only if they are bunched up. The phalanx, massed cavalry, and the human-wave formations will disappear, to be replaced by more modern light infantry doctrine.

If casters are rare and low-level, it looks a lot like LotR. Casters will be valuable, but fantasy war as we know it will still be recognizable. Massed attacks are viable if they are massive enough to absorb magical attacks and keep coming.

[Morty]

Those things still make dramatic changes. Many sieges ended because of disease in either the besieged or the besieging. Healing magic could alleviate that threat, as well as keep forces fighting fresh by, well, healing them. Relatively low level spells allow the creation of food and water. The whole idea of a siege is starving someone out as much as it is taking the castle through direct assault. This is no longer an option if such magic is available. Communications magic is also a game changer. If the besieged can't repulse the enemy directly, they can contact allies who can come to their aid. A dimension door spell, not to mention teleport, would allow the VIP's to escape a siege with ease, again negating the tactics usefulness.
Of course, it doesn't all help the defender. Spells like stone shape make breaking through the walls potentially trivial, and dimension door could insert a strike force in the heart of the castle with ease if the plans were know, which could be communicated by spies with various communications magic, and still might be risked nonetheless.
In short, the Fantasy warfare would be very different to say the least, even if magic were only "used for communication, siege warfare and first aid."

You're assuming a D&D world where magic is cheap, easy and powerful. Yes, in a D&D world even small spells make a huge difference. But that's why I don't play D&D anymore. In a world or system where magic isn't quite as trivial - for instance, if creating food out of thin air isn't a low-level effect - it's possible for it to affect warfare without turning it upside down.

[Ravens_cry]

You're assuming a D&D world where magic is cheap, easy and powerful. Yes, in a D&D world even small spells make a huge difference. But that's why I don't play D&D anymore.

Even relatively small amounts available to the elite, like nobles, is a game changer for warfare. The spells mentioned besides teleport only go up to 4th level and would completely change warfare, and only assumes using them for the uses you describe.

[Morty]

Even relatively small amounts available to the elite, like nobles, is a game changer for warfare. The spells mentioned besides teleport only go up to 4th level and would completely change warfare, and only assumes using them for the uses you describe.

They only go up to 4th level in D&D. In other games and settings, such effects might not even exist. Like the aforementioned producing food and water out of thin air. Other spells, such as opening doors in solid rocks might not be a matter of standard action. Healing might also not necessarily be a matter of instantly curing severe wounds. And so on and so forth. My point is, you're still operating on D&D assumptions that might not be true for other settings and systems.

[mint]

I read up a little bit on this after the last thread about this subject. The first war in history where combat was more deadly than diseases was WW1.
In a world with magic, it would be a good idea to use your casters to make sure most of your fighting force doesn't die because of poor communication or disease.
If you do mobilize large armies, you have to keep your casters/magic items safe or you lose.
Deploying them in harms way would be really bad.

[Tvtyrant]

I read up a little bit on this after the last thread about this subject. The first war in history where combat was more deadly than diseases was WW1.
In a world with magic, it would be a good idea to use your casters to make sure most of your fighting force doesn't die because of poor communication or disease.
If you do mobilize large armies, you have to keep your casters/magic items safe or you lose.
Deploying them in harms way would be really bad.

Except the disease right after it dwarfed the war :P The first war where the war really dwarfed disease was WWII, though my argument has added nothing to this conversation in anyway. I think of D&D in wars as being militia groups guarding lots of small castles against other militia groups; the real monsters out there are too busy fighting over the cosmos to deal with puny mortals.

[Ravens_cry]

They only go up to 4th level in D&D. In other games and settings, such effects might not even exist. Like the aforementioned producing food and water out of thin air. Other spells, such as opening doors in solid rocks might not be a matter of standard action. Healing might also not necessarily be a matter of instantly curing severe wounds. And so on and so forth. My point is, you're still operating on D&D assumptions that might not be true for other settings and systems.

Since no one has really brought up other baselines besides the vague generalization of "Fantasy setting," that seems comment is rather pedantic. Yes, I am making assumptions, based on a freely available system we all can look at and ponder the consequences of, rather then an endless going back and forth of personal opinions about what makes a fantasy setting. And looking at those spells and, again, assuming greater then Lord of the Rings availability, I, as a self admitted amateur armchair general, see great changes to what would otherwise be medieval warfare, to the point of near unrecognisably at even fairly low implantation levels.

[Typewriter]

It all depends on the worlds history.
Do people use the weapons their gods favor?
Have people been wiped to extinction by stray house cats?
Are you under constant siege by ogres? What about goblins?
Do the mages rule the world, and if so do they allow people to learn their art?
What's the population?
How many different races occupy the area around you?

[Firechanter]

A few months ago I discussed this thing with a couple of other gamers, trying to go for a stringent high-magic setting with the D&D rules. Here are some of the bits we came up with:

Armies with intelligent Magical beasts and such? Not if the war is a simple dispute between normal nations. Why should a Griffon risk getting killed over a strip of land the humans can't agree upon who gets to collect the taxes? Maybe if it's about survival itself or a war between alignments, then yes.

Armies will NOT consist of batallions of low-level mooks marching in rank and file, seeing how they can be easily nuked by a couple of wand-wielders, let alone Warmages and suchlike.

Eventually I arrive at the conclusion that the opposing forces will be comprised of smallish units of well-trained and experienced specialists. Very modern in flavour and thus very likely not to everybody's taste. If you don't like that, you need to get rid of magic first.

These units might actually share a certain semblance to the SWAT-team approach of Adventuring parties: tanks, ranged, casters etc. The casters, being a prime target, will try not to give themselves away, and adapt their appearance to that of their comrades. For instance by wearing Mithral Twilight Chainshirts. Or creating an illusion that makes them appear to be heavily armoured. Or both, so they aren't caught completely pants-down when some clown triggers an AMF.

Nobody will bother to send level 1 warriors into the field. BTW I am also firmly convinced that the demographic tables in the DMG are utter bull**** and should be scrapped, but that's another topic.
Instead, most regular troops will be maybe level 3-4, with a good deal of lvl 5-6 as unit leaders etc, and be properly equipped.
Bards and Clerics are prime Officer material, and also Paladins where available. The military importance of Clerics will also give the respective church(es) strong influence.

If Evil Necromancers are an issue because they like to create armies of undead, it will simply become commonplace to burn rather than bury all the dead bodies that do no qualify for ressing. Bang, no more toys for the Necromancer.

BTW: in the setting of a certain other fantasy game, the authors came up with an international agreement that outlawed any kind of magic in warfare (except healing magic I guess). In the setting history they planted "The Magician Wars" that drove thousands of people insane over the horrors released, thus leading to the consequential and unanimous ban of war magic. Effectively the authors stowed away this can of worms without opening it, and rank-and-file soldiers can happily march across the country.
[Later they toppled that again and let some incredibly cheesy demon war take place, but let's not go there.]

[Telok]

Personally I always like to play Master of Magic for a couple of hours before I start thinking about D&D warfare.

[Thrawn183]

The first country to turn their army into lycanthropes wins.

[GolemsVoice]

For this setting I'll assume D&D 3.5 rules, with mid-level NPCs (with PC classes) being rare, but still enough to be a reasonable force, and high-level NPCs as leaders and generals.

First, assuming a nation is bend that way, a lot of spying would go on. In addition to making normal spying easier with spells like invisibility and whatnot, magical scrying and counter-scrying would go on all the time. Most important places will be heavily guarded against magic, if possible. Think the Drow cities in Faerun.

Now, in an actual war, even low-level casters can make life hell for tight packed formations, either by targeting them with AoE effects, or by making terrain difficult to maneuver in with larger forces. So I'd imagine smaller units would be used, maybe 4-5 men, and probably specialized squads to deal with casters, equipped with means to deal with their magic. Low-to mid-level NPCs would act either as leaders, if they are martial classes, or as tactical scryers, blasters or assassins, if that's their strength. Most armies who can afford doing so will probably also have specialized people at hand to deal with magical creatures to tough to be brought down with normal infantry, as well as people who can counter or dismiss summoned creatures, and in turn summon their own.

Air control would be way more vital, since this is a thing that armies now have to worry about.

I can also see armies making large, terrible creatures, like dragons, the anchor of their lines, supporting the beast and advancing the breach made by it.


One has also to remember that, even if we do NOT include extreme magic cheese, a point where conventional, nonmagic weaponry just get's useless, and the goal of every army could be to obtain such a creature, or somebody who can summon them.

Another, similiar point is that, if necromancy is involved, a dead soldier isn't only a loss for you, but probably a (very horrific) gain for the enemy. A zombie or a skeleton might not be the most able combatant, but their cheap, fearless, and soak damage like noone else.
On the other hand, losses from wounds and sickness following a wound, something which I think has cost real-world armies many a soldier even when the battle was long fought, could be quite effectively handled by even minor magic, which doesn't even need to be cast by an actual person.