is my charecter evil

[awa]

Me and my group were playing yesterday and during the campaign my dm said my actions were sufficiently evil to immediately turn me to evil i disagreed but alignment does not matter to my characters classes (ranger and scout) and it was in character so i didn't argue much. I think the rest of the party agrees with me but id like to see what other people think.

our party is currently in an evil empire, the empires stated goals are the eradication all of non casters almost all non casters are conscripted into the army and forced to invade other nations where from what weve seen they will get kill by friendly fire from their arcane commanders. every new place they take over everyone is rounded up and forced into the army and sent to the next land to take it over. because their goal is to kill all non casters more than to actually win they use incredible stupid tactics and end up winning because they have lots of high level casters.

The next place on their hit list is my people who wont stand a chance. The events in question happened while sneaking into an enemy city. everyone in the city was either an arcane caster and part of the empire or a slave.
I ambushed a passing wizard in the dark shot him in the back then slit his throat. I latter lassoed a second one around the neck pulled him into an alley and killed him as well. The dm said this was cold blooded murder.

I personally felt that we were in an enemy stronghold wizards by virtue of there spells are never unarmed and are always dangerous and any damage i dealt to the empire gave the rest of the world a better chance of surviving.

so sorry for the length but what do you think

[The Glyphstone]

Of course it's cold blooded murder. So is a paladin kicking in the door of a dungeon and butchering the CE goblins and orcs living there, but they don't get hit with alignment shifts.

I'd call it Chaotic, but you're fighting to defend your people against an evil empire by means of asymmetrical warfare. The pre-emptive nature of your attacks (this was offense, not defense), makes it murky between Good and Neutral, but I wouldn't have shifted alignment for one act. Your Dm is way off base.

[JeminiZero]

I think its easier if you try an argue it from a Star-Wars perspective: You're a Rebellion freedom fighter, caught in the middle of Empire territory, run by various Sith Lords of immense power. You just killed two of them to help the Rebellion.

[Barbin]

You are not evil. All you did was preemptive defense, basicly kill them befor they can kill me and all of my friends.

If I had to an alignment on you it would be in the Chaotic Good/Neutral axis.

[Urpriest]

You're not in the city to kill the wizards, though, you're in the city to accomplish your plot objectives. As such, killing the wizards is essentially unpremeditated, and when your mind immediately leaps to killing when you're not in combat with somebody, with no planning or rational consideration, then the DM can rightfully be worried that your character is evil. That said, nobody switches alignment for just one act. Alignment is supposed to describe your actions as a whole, not dictate them in individual cases. Your DM is still way off-base.

[Kish]

Ever heard of a fellow named Piers Anthony? He's infamous for his rather bizarre concept of honor...

Do all arcane spellcasters in the empire approve of its goals? What happens to those who don't? Assuming the two wizards you're referring to were something like a guard patrol, no, your character isn't evil and didn't do anything wrong.

If the answers to my two questions are "I never thought to ask," and the wizards in question weren't in the military or might have been forced to join it, you're on much shakier ground.

[Ranos]

Are you a paladin ? Is there a mechanical reason why you would care about your alignment ?
Otherwise, why not just shrug at your DM and carry on playing your character like you always do ?

[gbprime]

Are you certain the two wizards you ambushed were guilty of anything? Were they on their way to buy more slaves, or were they on the way home to their children? Remember, even in Menzoberranzan there are innocent people.

But the real question... did your character CARE whether or not they were guilty of anything?

If yes, then your slide to evil should be slow. If no, then you're already there.

[Yuki Akuma]

A single evil act doesn't instantly change your alignment to evil.

Unless you'd never done a single good act...

[DragonBaneDM]

A single evil act doesn't instantly change your alignment to evil.

Unless you'd never done a single good act...

Agreed! Tell us more about your character. What's he done that would distinguish him from a cold blooded murderer?

[awa]

The party was in the process of trying to rescue slaves for no reward.

When forced to fight his own people he used subdual damage and payed to raise all the warriors who did get killed. we killed a roc threatening a village for no reward because it was a danger to the community.

In particular He goes out of his way to kill monsters that threaten roads making roads safe for travelers

[The Glyphstone]

Who the heck is he

A fantasy author, with, as noted, an 'odd' idea of honor.

[Lord_Gareth]

A fantasy author, with, as noted, an 'odd' idea of honor.

Honor itself is odd as hell, it should be said. It can be honorable to accept abuse without complaint, for example. No, it's not right, but it is honorable.

[/Court of the West]

[Vknight]

Honor is to each his own as is rational thinking.

The Paladin may say its rational to leave the wizards alone because he cannot prove they are evil at this distance or risk his fellow party members lives.

The Ranger/Rouge/whatever may say take them down to be safe and remove a possible threat that can come back at later dates.

Both rational and both logical. They also follow each individuals code of honor

[Burner28]

Good point Vknight though I do not think Honour is really the issue concerning the character. After all we don't know whether or not the character is Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic.

[awa]

the characters law/chaos is not being questioned just his good/evil
the character follows his own (and his peoples) well defined code of honor to the letter. So it just comes down to the point that of are his actions evil and if they are are they enough to turn him instantly evil or do his other actions negate them

[Vknight]

Thank you

Well that does have a determining factor.
A lawful character may see that as something that shouldn't be done on the reasoning he may only be forced as stated earlier

A neutral character should understand that doing the action means he must kill him quickly to not risk others and the law

A chaotic character can just say they were killing them because they can or because the wizard may become a threat.

[Tengu_temp]

A single evil act of this magnitude is not enough to make an otherwise good character evil, but yes, what you did was definitely evil. As far as you know, these wizards didn't really do anything wrong, and they weren't soldiers out to get you. Just because you're facing an evil empire does not mean it's okay to massacre its citizens.

Of course it's cold blooded murder. So is a paladin kicking in the door of a dungeon and butchering the CE goblins and orcs living there, but they don't get hit with alignment shifts.

To be fair, in campaigns that actually care about story consistency and logic, not plot-less dungeon crawls, the paladin is usually there because the goblins are raiders threatening a nearby peaceful community.

[Lord_Gareth]

To be fair, in campaigns that actually care about story consistency and logic, not plot-less dungeon crawls, the paladin is usually there because the goblins are raiders threatening a nearby peaceful community.

Said paladin should still offer an honorable surrender.

[Tengu_temp]

Said paladin should still offer an honorable surrender.

That's true. It's important to note that in a campaign that actually cares about roleplaying, paladins and other good-aligned characters should not exhibit the violent hobo mentality.

[Voldecanter]

Well your actions do seem effective for what you are trying to accomplish, but at the same time; I can see you sliding right into the evil spectrum. Your character right now doesn't seem all that evil, but given that you are sneaking into enemy territory in a War, the act should be justified. How long until you find yourself killing anyone that gets into your way, that is the question your DM is probably troubled with.

Talk to the DM about the alignment change; and make sure that both of you are on the same page. Ask the DM what it would take for you to attain your former Alignment if you want it back, or what actions would further shift you into the Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil/Chaotic Evil Spheres.

However, perhaps you just killed some Wizards who were on their way to the Government building to discuss how their actions have offer-stepped the bounds of human dignity etc, etc........

Decisions, Decisions

[Tekren]

Off topic: I understand honor to be gained the making and keeping of promises. Therefore, Honor is never gained by never promising anything, and is lessened by making and then breaking promises. Honor is how true to your word your actions are... and that is all. There is no morality inherent to it.

A person who promises to kill ten thousand people and does so gains a sort of honor. A person who is always on time could be said to be honorable. A person who swears to uphold the law, and does so is also honorable. A person who lies- even to say 'everything will be OK'- is committing a dishonorable act. A person who tells you "I will betray you if you trust me" is committing strangely honorable act.
It is how true you are.

On topic:
Cold blooded murder is evil. How can you possibly be certain the men you killed deserved it? Did someone Detect Evil? What if they were just some guys who knew they lived in an awful system but felt powerless to change it? What if they were part of a 'loyal opposition' trying to change the politics of the empire from the inside? What if they were part of a disloyal opposition, trying to meet and assist a new resistance fighter? (namely you?)
While all that is unlikely, and you very well my have murdered a mustache-twirling villain, cold-blooded murder is still an evil act. However, it would take many such evil acts to force an alignment shift.
How many? I don't know. But when you are looking upon the blood-soaked corpse at your feet, and you don't feel the slightest bit of emotion about killing this thing that was once a creature with hopes and dreams like you.... When there is no anger, sorrow, pity or compassion... you are there.

I was going to say something about paladins... but instead I shall say something about Ninjas.

WOAH, Ninja'd!

[Hazzardevil]

You're not in the city to kill the wizards, though, you're in the city to accomplish your plot objectives. As such, killing the wizards is essentially unpremeditated, and when your mind immediately leaps to killing when you're not in combat with somebody, with no planning or rational consideration, then the DM can rightfully be worried that your character is evil. That said, nobody switches alignment for just one act. Alignment is supposed to describe your actions as a whole, not dictate them in individual cases. Your DM is still way off-base.

I've lost count the number of times i've heard this.

A faustian pact instantly LE.
What you did was evil but from what I think, not enough to make you evil.
Now honour is really odd.
I read some sort of honour handbook for dnd.
It said that honourable people look down on giants because they are big. So a lawful good paladin would be looked down no by halflings because he can poke something from 20 feet with a lance.

[Grollub]

I guess the real question is.. WHY did you kill the two wizards? Were they just walking down the street and you saw them and decided wth, easy kills or ???

Without knowing all aspects.... definately seems Chaotic, and could be construed as evil.

But then again.. you are in an enemy empire, who is invading your country so everyone could be seen as a potential enemy, if your character is ruthless.

[Mastikator]

Guilt by association much? Just because the two victims were wizards in a nation where there's a systematic genocide against non-casters doesn't mean that the two were actually involved in this genocide.

Unless your have some reason to suspect the wizards were guilty of anything other than not being on the short stick of their own government (which isn't a form of guilt, for the record) the yes, it was cold blooded murder, completely unjustified.

They could have been citizens that were just trying to get along with their lives, and there's no reason to assume otherwise.


Does this make your character evil? I don't know, people are complicated, (even when you use alignments) and I certainly don't have all the necessary information.
But this piece of info I have undoubtedly points to the deep end of the alignment pool.

[Urpriest]

I've lost count the number of times i've heard this.

A faustian pact instantly LE.

Yes, and this is also true for a Helm of Opposite Alignment. These are both magical effects. The point I was making is that just going about your business non-magically should never be enough to instantly change your alignment.

[Hubert]

The problem is: how many cold-blooded murders does it take to send you to the deep end of the alignement pool? 1? 2? 5? 10?

[Amnestic]

On topic:
Cold blooded murder is evil. How can you possibly be certain the men you killed deserved it? Did someone Detect Evil?

Just gonna throw my 2 copper in here and say that things detecting as Evil isn't generally a good enough reason to kill them, even for Paladins or other such crusaders of Good-with-a-capital-G.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem is: how many cold-blooded murders does it take to send you to the deep end of the alignement pool? 1? 2? 5? 10?

Depends on your definition: I have personally been a Lawful Good Cleric who walked into a city of Hobgoblins and killed thousands while setting fire to it in order to prevent an upcoming war and it was considered a "good" act by the DM because the other option was WW IV.

[Vangor]

Depends if the world is cut-and-dry. Is everyone who is a spellcaster within this empire automatically a villain? Are there no pockets of officials and guards who think differently from the empire? Are some merely complacent rather than supportive?